Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Permacomputing Principles

permacomputing.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 228 posts

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#121

Post by beepbooptheory »

tolerance wrote: post #69
beepbooptheory wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are generally not "post-Marxist" or "decolonial," concepts/frameworks are. These are just theoretical markers, not something necessarily one identifies with in the way you suggest. And I would be curious to know why you are so certain that none of the "core ideas" of permacomputing have bearing to either of these things, if you believe they are so underdefined. Little bit of kettle logic there, no? This is suc…

> Like, why is the burden on the authors and not you to sort through the things you care about and don't? It isn't a one-way street. The authors have already , in fact, sorted through what they think a reader/participant does and does not care about. > Why is it not an opportunity to learn? Do you even care to know where they could possibly be coming from? If there is ever some kind of overlap between something you c…

If you are a capitalist or imperialist or whatever, its perfectly alright to oppose yourself to this. The thing I target here is this feigned confusion that these things are even applicable followed by some friendly advice on how they could have broader appeal. I just think if you aren't ignorant, than you would be engaging with it directly rather than just blustering at its very inclusion here.

Please, dissent away! I have only seen dismissal so far.

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#123

Post by beepbooptheory »

wfurney wrote: post #106
hdndjsbbs wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would an apolitical "permacomputing" look like? The premise is to reduce consumption and conserve resources. It's about recognizing the externalities associated with technology. You can't just do that in a vacuum. If you just want "MacBook with socketed RAM" there's already other people doing that. You don't need this to be that.

Thanks for your comment. I’m not very familiar with permacomputing so am trying to understand it more. I wouldn’t say im advocating for an apolitical movement necessarily, as much as it being open to incremental (instead of revolutionary) change. If permacomputing is fundamentally an anti-capitalist movement then obviously it doesn’t make sense to include capitalists in it, but I’m not sure it needs to be. I guess I…

I just want to say, I appreciate you directly getting to the actual ideological disagreement here. If you want to conceive of and fight for a neoliberal permaculture.. well that's something different than what this site is about for sure but I personally would be ready to find some common ground here.

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#124

Post by botanrice »

jl6 wrote: post #21

There’s a lot to love about more mindful and resilient and ecological use of computing, but I wish they would build a consensus around that instead of bolting on extra politics. It’s a symptom of polarization… you can’t have independent causes, they have to align to a bunch of other causes too, each one taking a slice off your support base until you’re left with the tiny, powerless intersection that already agrees wi…

I don't think the idea is particularly polarized and you can choose to be inspired by the premise without buying into the political aspect of it, as you may do with many things.

That said, I do feel like it's cringe to say it's anti-capitalist, anarchist, etc.. I have very progressive values but just can't associate with liberal groups because of stuff like this. Like, why? Just promote the culture to everyone, capitalists, political ideologies, etc. By making that statement it is automatically turning off ppl that might otherwise join the cause, it's really not helping anything imo. Kinda annoyed me to see that as well.

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#125

Post by yawpitch »

perching_aix wrote: post #104
yawpitch wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you see a substantial amount of bolted on extra politics on that page there’s a good chance you are experiencing the symptoms of polarization.

How do you reckon they'd tell it apart without also experiencing (or having experienced) it? If you do have an answer to this, why are you accusing him of it regardless?

There’s no accusation, just like there’s nothing particularly political or polarized in that piece. One can imagine an accusation, precisely as one can imagine the particularly political where it doesn’t actually exist.

As for how to discern the difference, well that’s the purpose of critical thinking and metacognition.

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#126

Post by phillmv »

myrmidon wrote: post #109
luqtas wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so tackling emergent discussions on equality and justice of our bloody past is a non-go... why do you think "permacomputing" started to exist in the first place? to make rich people have more durable products? /s

Discussions on colonialism and sustainable computing are completely unrelated topics by themselves (as is post-marxism). You can advocate for sustainability, right-to-repair, privacy etc. while being strongly capitalist just fine. The point is that the page puts "correct" political alignment very prominently, excluding a large intersection of people otherwise interested in the non-political parts of the movement.

>You can advocate for sustainability … while being strongly capitalist just fine. […] excluding a large intersection of people otherwise interested in the non-political parts

the far-right is literally trying to make it illegal for companies to say they're taking environmental concerns seriously (i.e. ESG bans in tx, fl, etc). in 2026, sustainability is not apolitical.

(it's _never_ been apolitical but i will spare you that lecture.)

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#127

Post by botanrice »

keybored wrote: post #116
jl6 wrote: post #21

There’s a lot to love about more mindful and resilient and ecological use of computing, but I wish they would build a consensus around that instead of bolting on extra politics. It’s a symptom of polarization… you can’t have independent causes, they have to align to a bunch of other causes too, each one taking a slice off your support base until you’re left with the tiny, powerless intersection that already agrees wi…

This by itself looks like a popular topic here (judging by the votes to comment ratio). But as is expected the topic gets derailed because people would like resilience, mindful use, and ecological care truly by themselves , not within a particular whole, or certainly not the whole that is proposed. But people like this genuinely think that these things are causally interconnected. And that treating them as separate t…

Using your own final example: could you not argue that if you trim the edges every day to fight weeds (read: practice permacomputing as a daily lifestyle), then over time the weeds may never grow to their fullest extent? And that if you get more and more people to help you trim the edges then over time you may establish a new 'edge' so to speak? (read: status quo).

But by telling people that they aren't really welcome to help you trim unless they agree that they must attack the root of the weeds, even tho that's really hard! I think that's the wrong way to think about the idea of environmentalism! We should encourage everyone to do whatever they find intersting and helpful. If the oil exec wants to do river clean-ups every weekend then why even balk at that? It's not black & white, it's great that in this theoretically scenario they want to even do that. Maybe over time they realize that the river keeps getting dirty because of their business actions, who knows?

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#128

Post by stackghost »

myrmidon wrote: post #86
hdndjsbbs wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would an apolitical "permacomputing" look like? The premise is to reduce consumption and conserve resources. It's about recognizing the externalities associated with technology. You can't just do that in a vacuum. If you just want "MacBook with socketed RAM" there's already other people doing that. You don't need this to be that.

You can recognize externalities and deal with it just fine without abolishing capitalism. See leaded gas or CFCs for example.

Neither leaded gas nor CFCs were eliminated because of capitalism. They were eliminated in spite of it. Companies got dragged kicking and screaming into compliance because of regulatory oversight, which is anathema to pure capitalism.

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#129

Post by [deleted] »

auggierose wrote: post #83
jl6 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking some parts and leaving others is exactly how intersectionalism should work: at an individual level. You throw your lot in with the orgs and movements you like, and leave or oppose the ones you don’t. The intersection is within you. Unfortunately the fashion is now for orgs and movements to declare their own intersections, which does nothing to further the core issues, while actively repelling those outside the…

> Successful orgs are laser-focused on their core purpose. I think that is capitalist ideology (“make number go up”), not a fact for a non-capitalist definition of “success”. So, you just might not be part of the audience they care about. Personally, I think there is a certain divide between capitalist and collectivist mindsets that cannot be bridged easily. In the end, it is either-or. In the end, one will win, and…

[deleted]

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#130

Post by dyauspitr »

jl6 wrote: post #21

There’s a lot to love about more mindful and resilient and ecological use of computing, but I wish they would build a consensus around that instead of bolting on extra politics. It’s a symptom of polarization… you can’t have independent causes, they have to align to a bunch of other causes too, each one taking a slice off your support base until you’re left with the tiny, powerless intersection that already agrees wi…

Politics is essentially your model of the entire world. It’s essentially inextricably present in everything you do.
Post reply on HN