Permacomputing Principles • Hacker News Board

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#101

Post by wfurney » Thu, May 07, 2026, 1:23 PM UTC

wolvesechoes wrote: post #70

wfurney wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, their introduction seems broadly applicable: > Whether you are a tech specialist, someone who uses a computer for daily tasks, or deals with technology only occasion, there are steps that you or the group you are involved in can take to reduce the environmental and socio-economic impact of your digital activities. Sounds great to me, but then they have these: > To mitigate this situation, this principle call…

> I expected this to be a technological movement first with politics snuck in Then you are naive. Everything that is concerned with how people organize themselves, where and how they allocate resources, how they are supposed to make decisions, what values they should uphold etc. is politics.

Thank you for your comment. I certainly am not familiar with permacomputing, so I accept your characterization and understand I have more to learn. With that said I feel like you haven’t really engaged with my argument, just sniped at me with a borderline insult.

The goal of my comments on this site is to learn more by engaging with others who may know more than me. Here I tried to point out ways in which the movement may be alienating itself it by excluding capitalists. If it makes me naive to not realize that was its core purpose, so be it

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#102

Post by __MatrixMan__ » Thu, May 07, 2026, 1:26 PM UTC

jl6 wrote: post #35

stackghost wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that the venn diagram of "people likely to be negatively impacted by climate change" and "people who belong to historically marginized or discriminated groups" has a lot of overlap. It's little wonder to me why permacomputing, having its roots in environmentalism, attracts people who spend a lot of time and energy on social justice causes. But still: It's okay to enjoy the mindful and resilient and ecologica…

Taking some parts and leaving others is exactly how intersectionalism should work: at an individual level. You throw your lot in with the orgs and movements you like, and leave or oppose the ones you don’t. The intersection is within you. Unfortunately the fashion is now for orgs and movements to declare their own intersections, which does nothing to further the core issues, while actively repelling those outside the…

> Successful orgs are laser-focused on their core purpose.

If putting up a some kind of flag or another is gonna keep people who would otherwise interfere with my core purpose from showing up, that might be the most expedient option for getting shit done. It's like: I'm not religious, but I'll wear a cross if it keeps the vampires at bay.

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#103

Post by myrmidon » Thu, May 07, 2026, 1:29 PM UTC

xantronix wrote: post #93

jl6 wrote: post #21

There’s a lot to love about more mindful and resilient and ecological use of computing, but I wish they would build a consensus around that instead of bolting on extra politics. It’s a symptom of polarization… you can’t have independent causes, they have to align to a bunch of other causes too, each one taking a slice off your support base until you’re left with the tiny, powerless intersection that already agrees wi…

I might be biased, but, I'm curious to know if there is any specific part of the Permacomputing Principles page that stands out to you as particularly political above the rest. I don't think the intent is polarisation by any means, but I can see how this sort of movement would be a difficult pill for most to swallow. I still see plenty of value in laying down those grassroots for a future moment when the necessity fo…

> [...] permacomputing is an anti-capitalist political project. It is driven by several strands of anarchism, decoloniality, intersectional feminism, post-marxism, degrowth, ecologism.

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#104

Post by perching_aix » Thu, May 07, 2026, 1:29 PM UTC

yawpitch wrote: post #98

jl6 wrote: post #21

There’s a lot to love about more mindful and resilient and ecological use of computing, but I wish they would build a consensus around that instead of bolting on extra politics. It’s a symptom of polarization… you can’t have independent causes, they have to align to a bunch of other causes too, each one taking a slice off your support base until you’re left with the tiny, powerless intersection that already agrees wi…

If you see a substantial amount of bolted on extra politics on that page there’s a good chance you are experiencing the symptoms of polarization.

How do you reckon they'd tell it apart without also experiencing (or having experienced) it?

If you do have an answer to this, why are you accusing him of it regardless?

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#105

Post by randusername » Thu, May 07, 2026, 1:30 PM UTC

I think it's rad that folks are thinking more deeply about what mainstream computing is implicitly for and what a counter-culture would look like.

The language on this site seems to position permacomputing in opposition to an unethical status quo.

Personally I'd rather more of a solarpunk computing initiative.

Instead of identity defined by what you are fleeing, define it by what you are running towards.

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#106

Post by wfurney » Thu, May 07, 2026, 1:32 PM UTC

hdndjsbbs wrote: post #82

wfurney wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, their introduction seems broadly applicable: > Whether you are a tech specialist, someone who uses a computer for daily tasks, or deals with technology only occasion, there are steps that you or the group you are involved in can take to reduce the environmental and socio-economic impact of your digital activities. Sounds great to me, but then they have these: > To mitigate this situation, this principle call…

What would an apolitical "permacomputing" look like? The premise is to reduce consumption and conserve resources. It's about recognizing the externalities associated with technology. You can't just do that in a vacuum. If you just want "MacBook with socketed RAM" there's already other people doing that. You don't need this to be that.

Thanks for your comment. I’m not very familiar with permacomputing so am trying to understand it more. I wouldn’t say im advocating for an apolitical movement necessarily, as much as it being open to incremental (instead of revolutionary) change. If permacomputing is fundamentally an anti-capitalist movement then obviously it doesn’t make sense to include capitalists in it, but I’m not sure it needs to be. I guess I disagree with the idea that capitalist systems are unable to reduce consumption/conserve resources.

It seems like this site had a “neoliberal” wiki entry but it got removed, or I at least I can’t access it, I would be interested to see it

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#107

Post by luqtas » Thu, May 07, 2026, 1:47 PM UTC

myrmidon wrote: post #103

xantronix wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be biased, but, I'm curious to know if there is any specific part of the Permacomputing Principles page that stands out to you as particularly political above the rest. I don't think the intent is polarisation by any means, but I can see how this sort of movement would be a difficult pill for most to swallow. I still see plenty of value in laying down those grassroots for a future moment when the necessity fo…

> [...] permacomputing is an anti-capitalist political project. It is driven by several strands of anarchism, decoloniality, intersectional feminism, post-marxism, degrowth, ecologism.

so tackling emergent discussions on equality and justice of our bloody past is a non-go... why do you think "permacomputing" started to exist in the first place? to make rich people have more durable products? /s

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#108

Post by perching_aix » Thu, May 07, 2026, 1:47 PM UTC

jl6 wrote: post #21

There’s a lot to love about more mindful and resilient and ecological use of computing, but I wish they would build a consensus around that instead of bolting on extra politics. It’s a symptom of polarization… you can’t have independent causes, they have to align to a bunch of other causes too, each one taking a slice off your support base until you’re left with the tiny, powerless intersection that already agrees wi…

I did not make past the first few paragraphs of the page due to it being a fancyword-salad, but I can see a quote from it here in the comments, and I see why you'd say this. The rest of my comment is more about what you wrote in the general case.

Unfortunately this is a two way road.

The more topics political factions gobble up, the worse this becomes. You may or may not have experienced completely benign words becoming very politically charged for example, same effect.

If you strip a subject from every related concern, it will feel pointless. People just won't have any way of relating to it. So these are diametrically opposed interests at their terminal points.

What I found works best is there being a movement on each respective polarized side instead.

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#109

Post by myrmidon » Thu, May 07, 2026, 1:53 PM UTC

luqtas wrote: post #107

myrmidon wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] permacomputing is an anti-capitalist political project. It is driven by several strands of anarchism, decoloniality, intersectional feminism, post-marxism, degrowth, ecologism.

so tackling emergent discussions on equality and justice of our bloody past is a non-go... why do you think "permacomputing" started to exist in the first place? to make rich people have more durable products? /s

Discussions on colonialism and sustainable computing are completely unrelated topics by themselves (as is post-marxism).

You can advocate for sustainability, right-to-repair, privacy etc. while being strongly capitalist just fine.

The point is that the page puts "correct" political alignment very prominently, excluding a large intersection of people otherwise interested in the non-political parts of the movement.

Re: Permacomputing Principles

#110

Post by cestith » Thu, May 07, 2026, 1:55 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #58

thrance wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which in practice is now coded as a "right wing" value. In practice? You mean, rhetorically, surely? The right wing is doing whatever it can to marginalize and disenfranchise anyone it doesn't like (and that's a lot of people). In the end, do you think marginalized people feel more included in the community in progressive cities or MAGA ones?

MAGA is structurally a lot closer to a radical political movement than to right wing politics in the traditional sense (which, to be fair, is mostly dead in the U.S. and that's a huge problem that the left also has a lot to answer for). I don't know how you can possibly read my comment as advocating for MAGA, especially the varieties of it that are most overtly and blatantly hateful towards marginalized groups.

In European terms the moderate right is still well represented in the US - by the leadership of the Democratic Party. The fact that there are a lot of liberals, progressives, and leftists who vote for or even belong to that party doesn’t mean they are an ideologically left party in their policies. It’s a symptom of a self-serving, self-sustaining two-party system. This is why there’s so much infighting and such acrimony within the party. There’s a real tension between people like Mamdani or Ocasio-Cortez on the one hand and the sort of Democrat that can win a general election someplace like Oklahoma.