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Rust running on every GPU

rust-gpu.github.io

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Re: Rust running on every GPU

#121

Post by reactordev »

tombh wrote: post #73
Voultapher wrote: post #34

Let's count abstraction layers: 1. Domain specific Rust code 2. Backend abstracting over the cust, ash and wgpu crates 3. wgpu and co. abstracting over platforms, drivers and APIs 4. Vulkan, OpenGL, DX12 and Metal abstracting over platforms and drivers 5. Drivers abstracting over vendor specific hardware (one could argue there are more layers in here) 6. Hardware That's a lot of hidden complexity, better hope one nev…

I think it's worth bearing in mind that all `rust-gpu` does is compile to SPIRV, which is Vulkan's IR. So in a sense layers 2. and 3. are optional, or at least parallel layers rather than accumulative. And it's also worth remembering that all of Rust's tooling can be used for building its shaders; `cargo`, `cargo test`, `cargo clippy`, `rust-analyzer` (Rust's LSP server). It's reasonable to argue that GPU programming…

Layers 2 and 3 are implementation specific and you can do it however you wish. The point is that a rust program is running on your GPU, whatever GPU. That’s amazing!

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#122

Post by wiz21c »

ivanjermakov wrote: post #58
thrtythreeforty wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically though, a user can only hope to operate at (3) or maybe (4). So not as much of an add. (Abstraction layers do not stop at 6, by the way, they keep going with firmware and microarchitecture implementing what you think of as the instruction set.)

Don't know about you, but I consider 3 levels of abstraction a lot, especially when it comes to such black-boxy tech like GPUs. I suspect debugging this Rust code is impossible.

shader code is not exactly easy to debug for a start...

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#124

Post by JayEquilibria »

kookamamie wrote: post #6
vouwfietsman wrote: post #3

Certainly impressive that this is possible! However, for my use cases (running on arbitrary client hardware) I generally distrust any abstractions over the GPU api, as the entire point is to leverage the low level details of the gpu. Treating those details as a nuisance leads to bugs and performance loss, because each target is meaningfully different. To overcome this, a similar system should be brought forward by th…

Exactly. Not sure why it would be better to run Rust on Nvidia GPUs compared to actual CUDA code. I get the idea of added abstraction, but do think it becomes a bit jack-of-all-tradesey.

Good stuff. I have been thinking of learning Rust because of people here even though CUDA is what I care about.

My abstractions though are probably best served by Pytorch and Julia so Rust is just a waste of time, FOR ME.

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#125

Post by jpc0 »

turnsout wrote: post #77
90s_dev wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's only complex because it's new, it will get less complex over time." They said the same thing about browser tech. Still not simpler under the hood.

Complexity is not inherently bad. Browsers are more or less exactly as complex as they need to be in order to allow users to browse the web with modern features while remaining competitive with other browsers. This is Tesler's Law [0] at work. If you want to fully abstract away GPU compilation, it probably won't get dramatically simpler than this project. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_conservation_of_comp…

> Complexity is not inherently bad. Browsers are more or less exactly as complex as they need to be in order to allow users to browse the web with modern features while remaining competitive with other browsers.

What a sad world we live in.

Your statement is technically true, the best kind of true…

If work went into standardising a better API than the DOM we might live in a world without hunger, where all our dreams could become reality. But this is what we have, a steaming pile of crap. But hey, at least it’s a standard steaming pile of crap that we can all rally around.

I hate it, but I hate it the least of all the options presented.

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#126

Post by jpc0 »

LegNeato wrote: post #45
Voultapher wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is we here? I'm curious to hear more about your ambitions here, since surly pulling in wgpu or something similar seems out-of-scope for the traditionally lean Rust stdlib.

Many of us working on Rust + GPUs in various projects have discussed starting a GPU working group to explore some of these questions: https://gist.github.com/LegNeato/a1fb3e3a9795af05f22920709d9... Agreed, I don't think we'd ever pull in things like wgpu, but we might create APIs or traits wgpu could use to improve perf/safety/ergonomics/interoperability.

Hears an idea,

Get Nvidia, AMD, Intel and whoever else you can get into a room. Get LLVMs boys into the same room.

Compile LLVMIR directly into hardware instructions fed into the GPU, get them to open up.

Having to target an API is part of the problem, get them to allow you to write Rust that directly compiles into the code that will run on the GPU, not something that becomes something else, that becomes spirv that controls a driver that will eventually run on the GPU.

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#127

Post by pjmlp »

yupyupyups wrote: post #85
pjmlp wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should they be incentivized to do anything, Valve takes care of the work, they can keep targeting good old Windows/DirectX as always. OS/2 lesson has not yet been learnt.

Regardless if the game is using Wine or not, when the exceedingly growing Linux customerbase start complaining about bugs while running the game on their Steam Decks, the developers will notice. It doesn't matter if the game was supposed to be running on Microsoft Windows ™ with Bill Gate's blessings. If this is how a significant number of customers want to run the game, the developers should listen. If the devs then…

Valve will notice, devs couldn't care less.

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#129

Post by guipsp »

max-privatevoid wrote: post #110
zbentley wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say more?

Rust GPU libraries such as wgpu and ash rely on external libraries such as vulkan-loader to load the actual ICDs, but for some reason Rust people really love dlopening them instead of linking to them normally. Then it's up to the consumer to configure their linker flags correctly so RPATH gets set correctly when needed, but because most people don't know how to use their linker, they usually end up with dumb hacks li…

Where's the dumb hack?

Re: Rust running on every GPU

#130

Post by Ygg2 »

jpc0 wrote: post #126
LegNeato wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of us working on Rust + GPUs in various projects have discussed starting a GPU working group to explore some of these questions: https://gist.github.com/LegNeato/a1fb3e3a9795af05f22920709d9... Agreed, I don't think we'd ever pull in things like wgpu, but we might create APIs or traits wgpu could use to improve perf/safety/ergonomics/interoperability.

Hears an idea, Get Nvidia, AMD, Intel and whoever else you can get into a room. Get LLVMs boys into the same room. Compile LLVMIR directly into hardware instructions fed into the GPU, get them to open up. Having to target an API is part of the problem, get them to allow you to write Rust that directly compiles into the code that will run on the GPU, not something that becomes something else, that becomes spirv that c…

Hell will freeze over, then go into negative Kelvin temperatures before you see nVidia agreeing in earnest to do so. They make too much money on NOT GETTING COMMODITIZED. nVidia even changed CUDA to make API not compatible with interpreters.

It's the same reason Safari is in such a sorry state. Why make web browser better, when it could cannibalize your app store?

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