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Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#121

Post by anonfordays »

malfist wrote: post #22
komali2 wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Modern conservatism grew out of authoritarian monarchist philosophers of the French revolution. It's inherently tied to supporting an unquestionable social hierarchy with rulers at the top, be they kings, presidents or billionaires. It's not so much as the philosophy is dead, but more that it's finally achieving it's goals. Anti authoritarianism is just a rhetoric device. Just like saying trans people shouldn't be al…

>Modern conservatism grew out of authoritarian monarchist philosophers

Not in the US. Modern conservatism in the US is tied to the individualistic self-reliance movement that rejects the concept of rulers at the top in favor of States' rights and local governance. It is classically liberal with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech.

You may be confusing it with conservativism in the UK/EU.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#122

Post by angst_ridden »

dontlaugh wrote: post #57
ceejayoz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They seem only distinguishable aesthetically to me. This is likely to depend heavily on what positions you care strongly about.

[flagged]

If you're not part of a group that will suffer under a white-supremecist theocracy they look very similar.

If you're part of a group that will, there is a visible difference.

Picking the lesser evil is actually a good thing if you can reduce harm. It doesn't solve the problem of it being a lesser evil, but it may make space to change that.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#123

Post by mcphage »

disposition2 wrote: post #75

Thanks for sharing, I’ve always enjoyed the Smithsonian magazine and its articles, hope to visit some day. I’m hoping all the RIFs, reductions / eradication of IMLS, etc. don’t reduce the gains in & sharing of knowledge from these institutions, but if I am being honest it kind of feels like it’s purposeful destruction. So I’ll enjoy it while we have it.

I’m planning to take my kids to Washington this summer to see the Smithsonian museums. It doesn’t seem like a great time to go to Washington, but I don’t know if they’ll be there, or in what state, next summer or the summer after.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#124

Post by ty6853 »

anonfordays wrote: post #121
malfist wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern conservatism grew out of authoritarian monarchist philosophers of the French revolution. It's inherently tied to supporting an unquestionable social hierarchy with rulers at the top, be they kings, presidents or billionaires. It's not so much as the philosophy is dead, but more that it's finally achieving it's goals. Anti authoritarianism is just a rhetoric device. Just like saying trans people shouldn't be al…

>Modern conservatism grew out of authoritarian monarchist philosophers Not in the US. Modern conservatism in the US is tied to the individualistic self-reliance movement that rejects the concept of rulers at the top in favor of States' rights and local governance. It is classically liberal with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech. You…

You're thinking of classical liberalism, which is something the dominating political factions are highly against. The contemporary meaning of conservatism has been hijacked by the Republican party which does not employ any of those goals.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#126

Post by Supermancho »

anonfordays wrote: post #117
hiddencost wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE's actions are wildly illegal. None of this false equivalence nonsense.

>ICE's actions are wildly illegal. No they're not. Deporting illegal aliens is not "wildly" illegal.

Cherry picking isn't compelling. The parallels between the philosophies of ICE and Israel are noticeable. ie Extraneous damage and laws broken along the way are justified collateral damage by sympathizers. A dark period for the US, indeed.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#127

Post by mcphage »

ericmay wrote: post #9
komali2 wrote: post #2

[flagged]

When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks and keeping their businesses opened despite lockdown orders did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then? One person’s freedom fighter is another person’s terrorist. Always has been and always will be that way. The winning side when there is one usually gets to write the history of who was what. Do you still feel pride in American anti-auth…

[flagged]

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#128

Post by Spivak »

isr wrote: post #99
dontlaugh wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I agree with what you're saying, but it strikes me (& this is particularly poignant on THIS site), that this discussion is somewhat equivalent to the "blub" paradox (aka, how do you explain the power of lisp macro's to someone who grew up only with c & Java). Americans are THAT brainwashed into thinking they really have a real choice at the ballot box, when in reality all choices that matter were weeded out long long…

Counterpoint: folks not from America create a 2d projection of our government where on the whole Americans are very aligned and where (usually Europeans) are not and conclude that US parties are the same while their parties are very different.

Meanwhile I can't tell the difference between any of the (just picking one) UK parties. From an outsider perspective their government seems exactly the same no matter who is elected. But I don't conclude that the Brits are brainwashed and instead that I would have to be there to actually understand just how different they are.

We're at a point in the US where your political party is a dating dealbreaker for 60% of Americans and 85% of Americans only date within their own party. This isn't a small group of heavily politically involved with strong opinions, this is everyday people recognizing what are extremely different and fundamentally incompatible world views.

We're only 6 months in and I would hope the world can really feel the difference when a conservative government took power. I would be shocked if anyone couldn't tell the difference between our government pre and post january.

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#129

Post by motorest »

ericmay wrote: post #9
komali2 wrote: post #2

[flagged]

When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks and keeping their businesses opened despite lockdown orders did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then? One person’s freedom fighter is another person’s terrorist. Always has been and always will be that way. The winning side when there is one usually gets to write the history of who was what. Do you still feel pride in American anti-auth…

> When Americans were “resisting authority” by not wearing masks and keeping their businesses opened despite lockdown orders did you feel the same pride in anti-authority behavior then?

From an outsider's perspective, it's hard to see the people with a militant attitude against basic health and higiene measures as other than narcisist authoritarian fools, who believed their personal whims naturally took priority over anyone's interests and needs. There's a reason why they frequently resorted to attacking and outright assaulting anyone who dared not cater to their demands.

It's very hard to see these covid karens portrayed in the same light as the US founding father's revolutionaries or today's protesters.

I guess the point is to not be consistent or coherent with these remarks. The goal is cynicism. You see Trump's secret police kidnapping people off the streets in broad daylight and when people dare express concern or opposition then the cynical "but covid" remarks flow in to muddy the waters. No, your ICE agent throwing flashbangs into crowded restaurants while kidnapping US citizens is not Ruby Bridges. Why even pretend?

Re: Defiant loyalists paid dearly for choosing wrong side in the American Revolution

#130

Post by maxwell »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #101
redeux wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of similarities when it comes to their tendency towards Corporatocracy and military spending, but it largely ends there. When it comes to taxes, fiscal priorities, rights for individuals, foreign policy, crime and punishment, and of course social issues they are very different and in most cases take the opposite approach. For example, Republicans want lower taxes for the wealthy while Democrats want l…

Democratic voters want those things. It's not at all obvious the party establishment does. The tell is that when Republicans push through their policies, Democratic opposition is weak and ineffectual. Instead of ferocious opposition the Dems send one of their famous sternly worded letters. Since at least 2000 the party establishment has absolutely refused to do any of the things it could do to change this - including…

The Democrats operate as if they're controlled opposition. It's like their donors pay them to blunt their base. They haven't accomplished anything legislatively this century beyond pass the 1993 Republican healthcare plan under Obama's name. They couldn't even raise the minimum wage.
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