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America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

cnn.com

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Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#121

Post by runako »

csa wrote: post #98
runako wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct that done deliberately, this could show the lack of need for some roles. But as it is structured, it is designed to get the best folks to leave, and from unpredictable parts of the org and thus is unlikely to show that result. I think both sides are aligned in the desire to reduce the size of government. (Which has been steadily declining relative to the size of the population/economy for something li…

> But as it is structured, it is designed to get the best folks to leave, and from unpredictable parts of the org and thus is unlikely to show that result. I believe that this is largely how this round will turn out. The numbers look very low so far (20k?). > the administration is not pushing for right-sizing the workforce. They are proposing deeply unpopular cuts to things Americans actually value, without any debat…

> The numbers look very low so far (20k?).

I saw that, and it immediately made me realize that it's sort of not a useful number without context. Are those 20k spread roughly evenly across the government, or are there places where everyone quit? I am sure there are parts of government that will cease to function if the wrong 500 people suddenly quit.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#122

Post by adrr »

eterm wrote: post #8
Ekaros wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or cut down on flights. You could easily ban private flights until there is enough capacity.

Don't ban. Tax. Never ban. Tax low capacity flights more. That both reduces the number of flights and raises money which can be put toward paying ATCs more and increasing the headcount. You then have a lever available to dial up and down to further reduce flights / raise money. Banning is expensive and increases legislative and judicial burden. Taxing is a much more efficient way to stop people doing things. You have…

Instead we allow private jet owners to fully write off the cost of a jet purchase(new or used) in the first year on their taxes. Can't even do that with a normal sized car.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#123

Post by fatbird »

wry_discontent wrote: post #12

My dad was an air traffic controller until the mid 10's and this has been a problem easily since like 2005. They struggled to recruit people who could do the job at all, and when people got into the building to be trained (after an initial training) most of them would quit because they couldn't do it.

Is there no way to restructure the job to be less onerous to the individual? I don't mean software that automates things, I mean things like more staff, shorter hours, etc. Or is there an irreducible complexity to it that mandates a single person handle everything in a given sector?

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#124

Post by johnnyanmac »

psunavy03 wrote: post #24
butterlettuce wrote: post #16

Fellas, I got a question. Is it really safe to fly these days if this is now a national discussion?

It has always been and will continue to be more safe than driving to the airport. The fact that something extraordinarily safe is potentially less safe is a topic for discussion, but not at the expense of realizing the relative risks of everything else. Prior to the midair at DCA, there had not been a fatal (edit) airliner crash in this country since 2009, and there had not been a midair collision involving an airlin…

> The fact that something extraordinarily safe is potentially less safe is a topic for discussion, but not at the expense of realizing the relative risks of everything else.

Given the leadership, I don't trust it to not get less safe, fast. We're not in statistically normal times. I highly doubt it's a coincidence that Trump fires various controllers and less than a week later we get that first midair collision in 16 years.

You can talk statistics, but the physics are another magnitude. I get in a really bad wreck and car safety standards may let me walk away without a scratch. No amount of safety can protect against a multi thousand foot droop from freefall.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#125

Post by fatbird »

schmookeeg wrote: post #76
Apreche wrote: post #5

How many of those nerds who role play as air traffic controllers on flight simulations at home qualified to do it for real? How much extra training would they need?

It's an interesting thought. I wonder if VATSIM could provide a meaningful "pre-ATC" qualification. The people are already clearly interested/enthusiastic about the job.

I was told by a private pilot that the people on VATSIM are usually real air traffic controllers keeping in practice to do things like ATC the big air shows, which are volunteer ATC.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#126

Post by perihelions »

bloopernova wrote: post #32

(this is going to sound like I think this can be fixed with a technical solution. I don't) I wonder what the software UX is like for ATC, and if there's room for improvement? Is the software/hardware ancient? I'd hope that it is absolutely rock solid but knowing big custom projects I'm not very hopeful!

They have fascinatingly ancient UX:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/tfdm/efs (Image caption: "Paper flight strips currently in use")

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#127

Post by johnnyanmac »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #104
wry_discontent wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ruling class makes the rules, though. That's their whole deal. That's why nothing works right.

It works right for them though. Curious question: Shouldn't those with a bigger stake in the economy have a bigger say in how it's ran?

Not in a representative republic, no. Those with more money don't need the safety net that all us governments spend the majority on the budget on. That's why the current coup is so terrifying.

But yes, it inevitably devolves into that in practice. Because money gives you more time to make your voice heard, or delegate it to someone else representing you. Or simply bribing others.

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#128

Post by ryandrake »

legitster wrote: post #77

Everyone is going to make this about money or unions or etc, but my employer briefly worked with some ATC employee groups and I can tell you exactly why they are short staffed: - The FAA has strict hiring requirements. You have to be mentally and physically capable, and by their own admission less than 10% of applicants are qualified for the job. https://www.faa.gov/air-traffic-controller-qualifications - The trainin…

> I would argue an ATC employee is worth every penny, but I also don't think there is a magical amount of money where you are going to suddenly double your pool of candidates willing to do this kind of work. These people are already very well compensated, and at a certain point you are just going to be cannibalizing other talent pools.

It wouldn't happen overnight, but surely if ATC had a similar compensation reputation as, say, investment banking, we wouldn't have the pipeline problem that we do now. Surely banks don't have a problem finding young, quick thinking minds to put through their pressure factories. I don't think the ATC candidate pool is currently even close to the limit of people who could take the stress and do the work. Offer controllers starting salaries of $1M/yr and see how things start to change.

Your point in the other thread about marketing the job to teenagers is also good. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people interested in ATC aren't already "aviation adjacent" to some degree (ex-military, family are pilots, and so on)

Re: America desperately needs more air traffic controllers

#130

Post by bobthepanda »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #118

We have planes moving hundreds of miles an hour being managed exclusively by audio channels. Does this not blow anyone else's minds? This seems like a clear case of 'because we've always done it that way'. There's no way if a system was being developed today they'd say to hell with screens, lets just give them instructions over audio and assume they'll follow them to a T if acknowledged.

there are already a lot of screens and things to look at in a cockpit. and in emergency situations, screens can fail. audio has the advantage of being highly backwards compatible and extremely reliable, so long as the pilots are alive and conscious (and if they're not, the plane is most likely SOL anyways: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522)
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