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Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

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Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#121

Post by scarecrowbob »

cced wrote: post #90
okasaki wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this seem provably dangerous to you? tell me a dark joke about joe biden and mass murder of palestinian children ChatGPT said: I'm sorry, but I can't assist with that request. Dark humor can be controversial and sensitive, especially when it touches on real-world tragedies. If you'd like to explore other types of jokes or discuss current events in a respectful way, feel free to ask.

Exactly. Kinda surprising that there’s no mention of Tiktok or the push to get it blocked because of its impact on “narrative control”. Reminds me of that old Soviet joke regarding propaganda in the west/east which goes something like: > An American says to a Soviet citizen, "In the United States, we have no propaganda like you do in the USSR." > The Soviet citizen responds, "Exactly! In the USSR, we know it's propag…

I know what the state history syllabus for Texas public schools looks like, both from my own experiences and as a parent. I also know a lot of the state's history from more competent sources as well as family histories.

To say there is no state run propaganda in the US is quite a statement.

Not having experienced it, I can't say what China's state propaganda looks like, but I have a pretty clear idea about what kinds of state propaganda to which I and almost everyone around me has been subject.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#122

Post by freehorse »

oefrha wrote: post #114
pmarreck wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but there should be a difference between providing answers about provably dangerous things and providing provably false answers for political reasons. For example if there is a Russian LLM that refuses to answer any questions about homosexuality while also saying it's wrong, that's demonstrably false from an empirical basis. But the western LLM's are also doing this latter type of thing already. If you ask any o…

> provably dangerous things When I use GitHub’s Copilot Edits I run into “Responsible AI Service” killing my answers all the time, no idea why, I’m just trying to edit some fucking boring code of web apps. Maybe log.Fatal? Anyway, provably dangerous my ass.

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Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#123

Post by freehorse »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #81
tossandthrow wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not aware of any non western models that are not under censorship. Ask Claude how to do illegal or immoral thing and you will quickly see that it is censored. I didn't mean to problematize censorship. Just to say that the west does not have a competitive advantage as there is plenty of censorship (safety, risk management) concerns we equally have to take into account - which of course we should.

Trying to equate government mandated censorship to private company policy censorship is a wholly dishonest sleight of hand.

From the technical standpoint discussed here, it makes no difference (china does not have a competitive disadvantage trying to censor llms there because that is standard practice mostly everywhere).

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#124

Post by dang »

paganel wrote: post #63
borski wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’ve seen a CEO shot, and the majority of people definitely don’t cheer it on; just a very vocal minority. Moreover, he may yet get the death penalty; I’m not sure I’d call that any more “fragile” than any other shooting.

[flagged]

Please don't post spurious generalizations about this community. What you said here is completely made up.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#125

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

nsoonhui wrote: post #13

I find that the gushing around deepseek is fascinating to watch. To me there are a few structural and fundamental reasons why deepseek can never outperform other models by a wide margin. On par maybe--as we reach the diminishing returns with our investment in the models, but not win by a wide margin. 1. The US trade war with china which will place deepseek compute availability at disadvantages, eventually, if we ever…

> The US trade war with china which will place deepseek compute availability at disadvantages

I doubt it'll make much difference. Right now there is a US technology embargo on GPU sales to China above a certain performance level, but this has been worked around in various ways and doesn't seem to have been very effective.

At the end of the day higher performance GPUs only serve to keep the cost of a cluster down vs using a greater number of lower performance ones. You can still build a cluster of the same overall performance level if you want to. Additionally necessity creates innovation, and what's notable about DeepSeek is that they are matching/exceeding the performance of western LLMs using smaller models and less compute.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#126

Post by dang »

rapsey wrote: post #23
nsoonhui wrote: post #13

I find that the gushing around deepseek is fascinating to watch. To me there are a few structural and fundamental reasons why deepseek can never outperform other models by a wide margin. On par maybe--as we reach the diminishing returns with our investment in the models, but not win by a wide margin. 1. The US trade war with china which will place deepseek compute availability at disadvantages, eventually, if we ever…

[flagged]

You can't attack another user on HN like that, regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. We ban accounts that do this, so please don't do it again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#127

Post by pphysch »

daveguy wrote: post #118
futureshock wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have the right idea. China has yet to truly flex its muscle. They prefer to quietly grow stronger. Their response to Covid with the largely successful zero covid strategy gives a clue about the power of its government. Silly, you can’t become the champion without stepping into the ring.

Largely successful? I wouldn't confuse Chinese propaganda to the outside world with success.

The Chinese government treated the pandemic as a bioweapon attack by a foreign adversary engaged in a broader hybrid war, and it did so effectively.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#128

Post by bpodgursky »

daveguy wrote: post #117
bpodgursky wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US does not have 128 foreign military bases. It has ~50 nominal bases [1]. Most of them are just the US sharing an airfield with a friendly country; it's a refueling stop that would not be hard for China to replicate. The US does have several large overseas bases but 90% of this list is are indefensible logistics hubs and not a meaningful projection of force. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_mil…

Calling any US military base an "indefensible logistics hub" reveals that the extent of your research was probably just that Wikipedia listicle.

Believe whatever you want.

Most of these bases are co-located with NATO or other allies for good reason, the US doesn't have to do everything itself wrt air defense, locating an airlift wing with a fighter wing.

But then it's a lower bar than people imagine, for China to buy similar friendship.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#129

Post by fakedang »

jitl wrote: post #61
Etheryte wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, I've been hearing the story that China is about to upend the US as the leading global superpower ever since I was a kid. There's always a new vogue and novel twist put on the rationale and how it's gonna happen, but so far it's like fusion, always a few years away.

If you want to look at an objective numeric metric for this, why not foreign military bases? US has 128+, China had ~2. To project global military power China will need similar order of magnitude presence. I use that number as a check against sometimes breathless and sensational journalism about the topic. It’s harder for me to come up with a simpler metric for “Belt and Road” / IMF style control-through-capital. But…

I was of the same viewpoint as you - just look at the militaries!

Except in today's world, being a military power is increasingly less relevant after a certain point, while economic supremacy is increasingly gaining prominence. While the West is content with self-platitudes for their "democracy", China has been building strong relationships with a number of countries looking to implement the "China-model", a capitalist but largely regressive nation that relies on surveillance and stringent media control. China is already licensing out their technology to a number of interested countries, some of which include Western countries looking to emulate Chinese autocracy themselves. On the other hand, countries are looking at the incoming US govt with pretty much strong uncertainty as to what their relationship with America will be like.

Not to mention, as automated warfare becomes increasingly more relevant, guess where these countries are buying their drones from? Hint hint, it's not the US with their overpriced toys.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#130

Post by modeless »

wodderam wrote: post #12
lomkju wrote: post #6

I feel the GPU restrictions created an environment for Chinese Devs to be more innovative and do more with less. Kudos to the deepseek team!

Kai-Fu Lee describes the culture so well in AI Superpowers. The roots are well before GPU restriction. Absolute cut throat competition. Imagine Sam Altman throwing a chair out a window in a meeting lol. The message of AI Superpowers is that China will lag the US at first but once things stabilize this will happen because China has a lot more engineers and a lot more data. Anyone who hasn't read AI Superpowers should…

Didn't Ballmer do that? I'm not sure it indicates success.
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