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The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#121

Post by s1artibartfast »

BlackJack wrote: post #95
ipaddr wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't the movement to stop slavery come from the UK? After that happened the African region refused to stop because it made them rich so England had to invade and created the Ivory Coast? England has a lot of credibility. The idea of reparations has come up. Should the US be paying or the African countries who profited and kept it going for another 100 years.

The British were engaged in the slave trade, then worked to outlaw slavery but replaced it with indentured servitude that was basically like slavery with a trivial income. That and exploitative colonial government meant you don't need slavery to loot everything. Reparations are a different topic and wouldn't necessarily solve the problems of slavery/colonization.

A great many countries were engaged in the slave trade, especially those where the slaves originated.

The British had the comparative advantage in shipping

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#122

Post by jahewson »

jltsiren wrote: post #109
gaoshan wrote: post #30

The labeling of things in museums as "stolen" is lacking, IMO. In some cases, yes... straight up looted items are in museums. In other cases, though, the items could easily have ended up lost to time (or political, economic, social turmoil) if they had not been taken and put in museums outside of the places where they originated. Additionally some of these places would not have had the means to care for antiquities b…

And in some cases, the items were lost because they were put in museums. Europe was not exactly a stable place in the 20th century. Many things were destroyed in the wars, and many items were stolen from museums by conquerors, individual soldiers, and looters.

Such as?

I don’t see a single missing artifact on this list that was taken by Europeans and lost in WWI or WWII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missing_treasures

Plenty lost in other parts of the world though!

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#123

Post by chgs »

skylurk wrote: post #100
chgs wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland and England has been the same country for far longer than say the USA has even existed.

And Scotland has been crowning Scottish kings with it since before England even existed, if you believe the legends ;)

Including James 6th, who then took over England.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#124

Post by fsckboy »

libraryofbabel wrote: post #26
arethuza wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK government occasionally does give things back on the understanding that they can be returned for a bit when required... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_of_Scone

The Stone of Scone getting returned to Scotland is a bad example. Sure, it’s symbolic, but Scotland is in the UK and so this was really just moving something around within the UK borders.

>The Stone of Scone getting returned to Scotland is a bad example

The Stone of Scone is a good example of something else, though: if you declare that your king is coronated on a particular stone, when your neighbor conquers you what do you think your neighbor is going to do with the stone? Same thing you would do if you conquered them.

Anyway, James VI of Scotland became King James I of England, which merged the claims, and meant that from then on, claims to the Scottish throne and claims to the English throne would be the same thing.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#125

Post by Yizahi »

angry_moose wrote: post #7

Stuff the British Stole is a really good podcast (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) that explores the difficulties of these situations: https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/stuff-the-british-sto... Things like: - The current government in power may not allow the artifacts to be returned to the original people, but will accept them and place them in the national museum. In many of these cases; the original people…

And massive return of artifacts (as opposed to one or two once every decade) will open some very inconvenient flood gates, like the fact that Britain was not the only empire in the history. And some "non-western" countries were or are empires too. Imagine that after India get their stuff back, Afghanistan comes next to India and asks for their share. That would be very bad optics. While without actually receiving stolen or gifted stuff, countries can keep their moral high ground and common external enemy (which is conveniently very far away).

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#126

Post by s1artibartfast »

isodev wrote: post #120
s1artibartfast wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an interesting theory, if I understand it. Is the Idea that controlling a geographic region makes one the rightful heir to any artifacts created by people and cultures previously in the region? Does the USA have a claim to all indigenous Artifacts created in the US? It doesn't seem that different than Egypt laying claim to Egyptian artifacts.

I think it’s clear the spirit of my comment was to mean that the descendants of the original owners would be one of the parties with a claim to have their artefacts repatriated. It’s clearly not a strictly geographical problem.

Are we talking genetic ancestry? What if the genetic ancestors have little in common with the current geographic population What if the genetic ancestors themselves were brutal slavers and overlords who extracted the riches by force?

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#127

Post by nickff »

rightbyte wrote: post #33
moi2388 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the time period, anyone between the Egyptians, Hyksos, Nubians, Libyans, Persians, Assyrians and the Romans, and indeed the British, since they all at one point were the official rulers of Egypt. I have no idea why citizens of modern Egypt, which didn’t get formed until 1953, would be more entitled to up to 3500 year old artifacts more than the then actual owners (agree with the means or not)

Mummies are maybe a bad example, as one could argue, that bodies should be by their grave.

Graves generally aren't permanent; most plots are leased for a fixed term. What is done with the caskets and contents thereafter varies widely.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#128

Post by s1artibartfast »

bee_rider wrote: post #119
isodev wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure I follow - The items were taken from somewhere at some point in time and now there is a country on that territory.

The idea of a nation-state is surprisingly recent and not completely universal, right? Historically people might be organized along kinship, tribal, ethnic, religious, or some other lines. Then an empire could pop up and control various groups of those, often against their wills, sometimes via intermediaries (which might not even map well to the underlying peoples). I do think the best thing to do is to return artifa…

Interesting thought. Perhaps the Egyptian relics should be repatriated to modern day practitioners of Egyptian polytheism. I believe the Kemetic Orthodoxy is currently headquartered in Illinois, USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemetic_Orthodoxy#Worship

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#129

Post by jahewson »

comte7092 wrote: post #60
mihaic wrote: post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

While London is indeed a global city, access is very much not equal. Immigration/tourism requirements are always the strictest against the very countries who were plundered during colonial times, in comparison to rich countries with an imperial past/present. Most of the world will never visit the UK. Most of the value that the British museum supplies goes back to the UK in the form of tourism and to close allies of t…

> Immigration/tourism requirements are always the strictest against the very countries who were plundered during colonial times

Trivially false. The UK has strict requirements for Russia, a former imperial power. The USA was formerly 13 British colonies and has few restrictions.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#130

Post by jogjayr »

matwood wrote: post #117
comte7092 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While London is indeed a global city, access is very much not equal. Immigration/tourism requirements are always the strictest against the very countries who were plundered during colonial times, in comparison to rich countries with an imperial past/present. Most of the world will never visit the UK. Most of the value that the British museum supplies goes back to the UK in the form of tourism and to close allies of t…

What place is easier for 'most of the world' to visit?

Singapore allows visa-free travel to passport holders from 159 countries + many more with an e-visa or visa on arrival.

The UK allows only 83 countries' passport holders visa-free.

I picked Singapore at random. Probably some other country is even more visitor-friendly.

https://embassies.net/singapore-visa-exemption

https://embassies.net/united-kingdom-visa-exemption

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