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Men In Tech

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Re: Men In Tech

#121

Post by DenisM »

emgreen wrote: post #83

I like this as an exercise in empathy. It's important to consider how we treat the "odd ones out" in any group. Maybe we're on snowboarding holiday with friends who are all mad keen boarders, except for one who's never seen snow before, we'd probably adjust our behaviour and hang out on the baby slopes a bit and help out our friend. Or maybe we're organising a work party, and it would normally be a slightly boozy aff…

Excellent point, and well articulated. I think we can take a lot of edge off this problem by restating it more neutrally - don't be a jerk towards anyone, if a person is worth having around, they are worth the effort of providing sensible accommodations. The non-drinking friend and wheel chair ramp are great examples of such rule.

Re: Men In Tech

#122

Post by NotMyMorals »

DanBC wrote: post #119
NotMyMorals wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And is that really an awful way for guys to hit on you? They're going to do that anyway, and at least this way they're expressing interest in your interests, rather than just staring at your chest. If the man is attractive, women will generally welcome the flirtation. If he is unattractive, the woman will generally perceive it as an insult to her attractiveness, since the man should know better, that she is "out of…

> Also, can anyone explain why it is considered a "good thing" to have a gender balance in tech, or any industry? We strive for a balance because that's a good way to avoid excluding people. Excluding groups of people is bad because they may have different ways to attack problems or different insights to bring to development etc. Mono-cultures are generally weak and vulnerable. Diversity is generally robust.

>We strive for a balance because that's a good way to avoid excluding people. Excluding groups of people is bad because they may have different ways to attack problems or different insights to bring to development etc.

We exclude all sorts of groups, including the incompetent, all the time. There are cases when the benefits of including some group may cause a net detriment due to other factors.

>Mono-cultures are generally weak and vulnerable. Diversity is generally robust.

These glittering generalities are not backed up by any facts. "Diversity" often causes more problems than it purportedly solves, and generalizing "mono-cultures" as "weak and vulnerable" is not something that you can base on facts.

Re: Men In Tech

#123

Post by NotMyMorals »

koeselitz wrote: post #100
tomp wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You'd be surprised the shit women deal with. I'm not sure, but I think you're being too general. I'd rather state this: You'd be surprised by the shit *attractive* women have to deal with. And I 'm pretty sure that attractive men have to deal with the same kind of "shit". They just react to it differently. Edit: I expected the downvotes, but please reply, do you disagree with the stated facts (i.e. does you experie…

So let me boil this down. You don't believe women in general have to deal with "shit" - you think it's attractive women that deal with that shit. And moreover the fact that they're women has nothing to do with it; the only bias here is against attractive people in general. If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying sexism is not a problem at all in the real world. Did I make a mistake in reading your comment?

I don't know about him, but "sexism" is not a problem at all in the real world. "Sexism" is a concept invented by cultural Marxists who openly proposed its use to disrupt existing cultural groups for the benefit of certain social classes (intellectual workers, etc.) and primarily exists in the modern business environment to make money for law firms.

So, no, "sexism" is not the problem, the problem is "anti-sexism."

Re: Men In Tech

#124

Post by JanezStupar »

kejmen wrote: post #115
JanezStupar wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You obviously never got assaulted by strangers for just passing by?

No, you obviously got because Slovenia is real ghetto.

What exactly is your point? That people don't get assaulted elsewhere?

Or that in Slovenia bystanders never get under attack?

And finally, how the hell have you deduced that I got attacked in Slovenia?

Re: Men In Tech

#125

Post by NotMyMorals »

NotMyMorals wrote: post #123
koeselitz wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let me boil this down. You don't believe women in general have to deal with "shit" - you think it's attractive women that deal with that shit. And moreover the fact that they're women has nothing to do with it; the only bias here is against attractive people in general. If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying sexism is not a problem at all in the real world. Did I make a mistake in reading your comment?

I don't know about him, but "sexism" is not a problem at all in the real world. "Sexism" is a concept invented by cultural Marxists who openly proposed its use to disrupt existing cultural groups for the benefit of certain social classes (intellectual workers, etc.) and primarily exists in the modern business environment to make money for law firms. So, no, "sexism" is not the problem, the problem is "anti-sexism."

In the above, "intellectual workers" would probably translate better as "political workers" as far as its use in cultural Marxist writings.

Re: Men In Tech

#126

Post by adaml_623 »

tomp wrote: post #82
TheSOB88 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attractive men DON'T have to deal with the same kind of shit, in general, because they are not a minority. They are not in a minority with social precedents to keep them down, which is what this article is all about. Institutionalized sexualization of women through teasing and joking is pretty common. This piece is trying to get you to where you try to understand what it's like. Most of us have wondered if our bulge…

Reading your reply, I had an idea... Maybe women perceive men as being sexually discriminating because they only receive sexual comments from men . When I try to think about it, I (as a man) also receive much more sexual comments from men. Maybe it is simply that men are much more open talking about sex, and when we do it with everybody, men and women alike, but when women hear it, they think it has something to do w…

My general impression is that women will receive comments from other women that are generally different to the comments from men. And while these female-to-female comments may not be sexual per se they are not always going to be 100% positive when a women is trying to do something non-traditional.

Basically some other women will often be just as discouraging and as sexist as some men. They will reinforce the same strict gender stereotypes for the same illogical reasons as the men.

Re: Men In Tech

#127

Post by robconery »

scotty79 wrote: post #67

OP could make his statement much stronger if he wrote the whole piece from perspective of bit asexual straight man working in environment dominated by gay men who would introduce in daily worklife all kinds of innuendos often forgetting that protagonist is not interested in them and also not very interested in sexual layer of human interaction. I think the innate homophoby of the readers could help them to better und…

The trick in pulling this article off is you can go too far with your stereotypes and "artistic license" - actually offending the people you're trying to defend.

And I've worked there - in a place where gay men outnumbered the men. I've been cornered - shoved in between two refrigerators while a guy who outweighed me by 50 pounds leaned against me and went for my bits - all the while telling me "it's time to come out".

I put my fist into his sternum as hard as I could. He laughed - "feisty! I like it..." and he backed off.

This happened. But what's the point of this story? That gay men can be aggressive? That I was "wronged"? That I can somehow identify with women because I was, literally, assaulted at work?

Re: Men In Tech

#128

Post by robconery »

michaelochurch wrote: post #60

My boss (the senior dev) is a Dragon Girl Targaryens everywhere!

LOL the image I was going to use in the header was Daenaerys - but thought it went a bit too far. PJ Harvey is a hero, so I decided she should sit atop the post.

Re: Men In Tech

#129

Post by IAmNotMyself »

NotMyMorals wrote: post #122
DanBC wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, can anyone explain why it is considered a "good thing" to have a gender balance in tech, or any industry? We strive for a balance because that's a good way to avoid excluding people. Excluding groups of people is bad because they may have different ways to attack problems or different insights to bring to development etc. Mono-cultures are generally weak and vulnerable. Diversity is generally robust.

>We strive for a balance because that's a good way to avoid excluding people. Excluding groups of people is bad because they may have different ways to attack problems or different insights to bring to development etc. We exclude all sorts of groups, including the incompetent, all the time. There are cases when the benefits of including some group may cause a net detriment due to other factors. >Mono-cultures are gen…

A lot of shops I have worked in the last 15 years had no such exclusion on incompetence....

Re: Men In Tech

#130

Post by georgieporgie »

wpietri wrote: post #106
georgieporgie wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there are some people who are perfectly well socialized who are also sexist jerks. Okay. I maintain that in the tech community , it's horrible social skills that's driving the majority of what appears to be gender bias, sexual harassment, etc. I also maintain that focusing on developing better social skills, empathy, etc. will do far, far more to solve the problem than simply pointing out over and over again the…

Your theory that apparent sexism in the tech community is actually only poor social skills requires that sexism in the tech community has died out. Because otherwise poor social skills would just make the tech community sexism more obvious than mainstream sexism. Which I think is exactly the case. Sexism is a millennia-deep, society-wide problem. I think it's absurd to say that the tech community is actually not sexi…

Your theory that apparent sexism in the tech community is actually only poor social skills

I said "largely the expression of".

requires that sexism in the tech community has died out

It absolutely does not.

Because otherwise poor social skills would just make the tech community sexism more obvious than mainstream sexism.

And there you go. It's unlikely that misogyny and 'real' sexism exist among the tech community at levels significantly higher than other fields, yet it comes up all the time in the tech community. So, what's the explanation? Horrible socialization.

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