"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem • Hacker News Board

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#121

Post by ghurlman » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 5:23 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #64

othermaciej wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nursing and teaching used to be men's work. Women weren't thought to be capable of it. Too weak. Too sensitive. Too illogical. Do you have any citations for that? My impression is that nursing and teaching were considered women's work before they even existed as distinct professions. Nursing was originally done by women's religious orders, and was founded in its modern form by a woman, Florence Nightingale. And tea…

With teaching, there have been laws aimed at preventing men from teaching for well over 100 years now. That's why the vast majority of elementary school teachers are women. In the era of modern American schooling, there has never been a period where women were not dominant. I suppose you could make an argument that historically most itinerant teachers were probably men, but this really seems like a very different job…

[citation needed]

Please? I'm curious if this is local to you, or a more widespread thing.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#122

Post by devs1010 » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 5:24 PM UTC

codesuela wrote: post #25

I find this whole brogrammer phenomenon ridiculous. It seems that it was a joke but now people start taking this stuff serious. I feel really embarrassed for people who describe themselves as brogrammers

I think that non-tech people, especially recruiters, could be responsible for taking something like this and running with it. Recruiters, especially non-internal ones, are often grasping at straws and they may hear something about "brogramming" and take the concept and run with it thinking that they can seem cool to recent grads, younger developers, etc.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#123

Post by vibrunazo » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 5:24 PM UTC

lotharbot wrote: post #56

dsr_ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would dare to guess that women are underrepresented among developers PRECISELY because of this culture and the underlying assumptions and attitudes. Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis, which is the foundation of programming. If you don't have parity in your pool of candidates, there's a cause, and it's probably social. Nursing and teaching used to be men's work. Women weren't thought to be capable of it. Too…

> "Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis" Brain chemistry is relevant to logical analysis. Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry. There are also social problems that contribute. But the gender ratio would not be 50-50 even in a completely egalitarian society. Women like my wife [0] are rare, partly because of "brogrammers" chasing them off, but also because a smaller proportion of women are interested…

> but also because a smaller proportion of women are interested in the particular types of analysis that are relevant to programming.

1) That's pure speculation. You have no way to be sure of that.

2) That same speculation is often, and very often used as an excuse for offensive discrimination.

So it's simply the most safe, skeptic, scientific and socially healthy attitude for us. To stay as far away from that speculation as much we can.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#124

Post by chc » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 5:25 PM UTC

EvilTerran wrote: post #102

chc wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You clearly missed the job ad a few months back explicitly requesting a "brogrammer" to fit in with the company culture. Sexting is also quite real (why would MMS be the one medium by which people choose not to send naked pictures of themselves?). So unless you have good proof of rainbow parties and jenkem, you're way off. Note for my rather ignorant downvoting friends: This was a real job ad from a YC company. It us…

I don't know how to refer people to the guidelines without appearing either rude or condescending... but they do say: Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I admit I'm guilty of that at times, but in this particular case, I was not complaining about being downvoted — I was suggesting that the downvoters reconsider their motivations. It was a sincere comment. You will note that nowhere in my comment did I whine about the unfairness of the downvotes or bemoan my lost magical fairy points.

I don't know if I'd venture to call it engrossing reading, but at any rate, I think it's less boring than recitations of the guidelines.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#125

Post by rada » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 5:26 PM UTC

127 wrote: post #81

dsr_ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would dare to guess that women are underrepresented among developers PRECISELY because of this culture and the underlying assumptions and attitudes. Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis, which is the foundation of programming. If you don't have parity in your pool of candidates, there's a cause, and it's probably social. Nursing and teaching used to be men's work. Women weren't thought to be capable of it. Too…

You are trying to build a narrative that it's men stopping women from participating in software development. I find that problematic and harmful. Where is your proof, other than pure conjecture? My own conjecture is that women don't want to do software development because it's boring and difficult. I'm sure they could if they wanted to, they just do not. With a few notable exceptions to the rule.

"Women don't want to do software development because it's boring and difficult".

Except it's a well known fact that until the 80's, roughly half of US programmers were women, and all around the world, the percentages of women in computing are growing, not shrinking.

And please don't say that people who stay away from technical careers do so because it's "difficult". You are one conjecture away from suggesting that white and asian males are intellectually superior to everyone else.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#126

Post by EvilTerran » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 5:26 PM UTC

RandallBrown wrote: post #17

The brogrammer meme is JUST A JOKE! It's the very opposite of a stereotypical programmer. It's simply taking a stereotype, flipping it around, and poking fun at it. Instead of being disgusted by jokes about nudie calendars, do something about it. Go give your own presentation. Recruit more women at your company. Turn the boys club into an everyone club. I'm not saying that everything people are doing is okay, I'm jus…

I tire of this facet of postmodern culture whereby one can avoid being held to account for one's character flaws and unpopular attitudes by hiding forever behind a veil of ambiguous "irony".

Make a claim in a possibly-ironic tone; see how your audience takes it; if they seem to agree with your overt sentiment, become unambiguously sincere; if they seem to disagree, become unambiguously ironic. Either way, you can adapt your apparent opinions to fit in to your current social group without any risk of reprimand for expressing a dissenting voice.

I sometimes wonder if the perpetually-ironic actually have any thoughts or opinions of their own underneath their layers of dry snark.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#127

Post by devs1010 » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 5:28 PM UTC

codesuela wrote: post #96

burgerbrain wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not so quick to blame the people who call themselves that. Sure, some 'brogrammers' are sexist pigs who lack self awareness, but I get a strong feeling that the majority of them are just regular smoes who are looking to avoid the alternative programmer stereotype that is thrust upon them by society at large: 'doesn't shower, and likes science fiction a bit too much'.

yes I get that but how about going to gym, being groomed and well dressed and well versed WITHOUT conforming to the Bro stereotype, you know...like a INDIVIDUAL It's not like you have the choice between being a BROgrammer or a PROgrammer. You can also be an Software Engineer that doesn't conform to either stereotypes or "subcultures" if you would call it that. People who call themselves brogrammes seem to lack the cr…

Or they could just decide not to make their career their personal identity. I rarely feel the need to go out of my way to talk about my career, or tell people what I do, unless asked, in situations where I know their line of work has nothing to do with mine.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#128

Post by kingkilr » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 5:29 PM UTC

batista wrote: post #89

TL;DR; A guy made some jokes anybody would fine perfectly acceptable (if not ho-hum), and a few tight-arsed politically correct prudes walked out as if he was citing from the Main Kampf, in order to show how anti-sexist they are. Political correctness: or why should the far right monopolize all the moralizing, fear of sexual references and plain old dirty jokes? Progressive people can be prudish squares too. Oh: and…

a) These "jokes" are beyond unacceptable.

b) Violent video games do increase aggression in kids, it took less than 2 seconds to find dozens of journal articles on the subject.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#129

Post by batista » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 5:29 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #87

batista wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What I find particularly disconcerting about this Van Horn story is not that it happened (which is terrible in and of itself), but that this guy is 28, went through Digg (who never struck me as a company of idiots), already presented a sexist presentation, and still appears at SXSW either by invitation of him or Path. Why would Path or SXSW allow it? Did he not practice this presentation at Path before heading out?…

Your sarcasm hides your point a little too well, I think. What are you trying to say here? That we shouldn't criticize him or his company when he behaves poorly? That we should criticize him, but couch it in soothing excuses? That his presentation really was acceptable?

The third. That his presentation really was acceptable, and people are making issues out of nothing --just to prove that the far-right should not have a monopoly on prudes and squares.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#130

Post by droithomme » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 5:30 PM UTC

All right, let me get this straight. So this guy gives a speech criticizing gang bang interviews, and people walked out because they don't like the term "gang bang".

Or is it because they are so addicted to gang bang interviews that they aren't willing to give them up and are offended by anyone criticizing the practice.

I also despise gang bang interviews. There is no advantage to them and they should be stopped.

I also admire this guy for having the balls to come up with the disparaging and offensive term "gang bang interviews", because it does a great job of reframing the discussion about this practice. I will definitely start referring to them as "gang bang interviews" myself when mocking the practice.

Cheers!