Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 149 posts

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#121

Post by filoleg »

strofcon wrote: post #110
spiderice wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because having one word mean two different things is less clear than having two words that mean two different things.

Except that the word, "recall", doesn't have two different meanings. It literally means the same thing here as it does for a recall wherein a Jeep has to have its shifter replaced / tweaked / whatever. Just so happens that the latter can't be fixed via software, because it's not a software-based safety failure. The former is fixable via software update, because it is a software-based safety failure. Both, however, ar…

> Except that the word, "recall", doesn't have two different meanings.

To the car owner who has to deal with a “recall”, it functionally does.

One type of a recall requires you to drive to a dealership/service center and leave your car there while the issue is being resolved. The other type requires you to do nothing aside from just waiting for the OTA update to install.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#122

Post by filoleg »

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #43
sickofparadox wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the average user on HN needs an explanation that a word in a title actually has a completely different effective meaning, I'd say that it is unlikely to be a clear title.

I would say on HN you're far more likely to get some "whell ahcktuwally" comments in the most counterproductive way, particularly because there are so many Tesla and Musk fans that immediately become defensive vs any negative news or criticism of each and engage in semantic quibbling to deflect. Recall is the correct word to use for this sort of NTSC action. Most people understand what it means and don't care about O…

> Most people […] don't care about OTA vs plugging in an ODB port.

Yes, they do.

For the former, you just let the car autoupdate and that’s it. For the latter, you gotta drive to a dealership/service center and leave your car there so that the service center employees can resolve it via “plugging in an ODB port.”

One requires much more work and effort than the other on the part of the driver. For one, I think most people would care about having to potentially take a day off work + figure out their transportation while the recall issue is being resolved at the service center.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#124

Post by filoleg »

solardev wrote: post #15
Oras wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > Tesla began issuing an “over-the-air software remedy” to certain vehicles on Tuesday, safety officials said. The remaining vehicles will receive software updates later, and all updates will be free for the cars’ owners. I was confused as to why Tesla needs to "recall" when they can do OTA update. The title is misleading surprise

It's because the NHTSA forced them into a safety related "recall". It's not just a regular OTA update. Tesla has a long history of being dishonest about Autopilot capabilities and dangers, and it's killed several people so far. The NHTSA is forcing them to make some tweaks. (Not arguing that autopilot is on the whole any more or less safe than human drivers. Just that Tesla has a history of misrepresentation.)

> It's not just a regular OTA update

Thematically and semantically, sure, I agree, it isn’t.

Functionally, it is, as it installs just like any regular OTA update and doesn’t require the driver to do anything differently compared to a non-recall OTA update.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#125

Post by filoleg »

Oras wrote: post #18
solardev wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because the NHTSA forced them into a safety related "recall". It's not just a regular OTA update. Tesla has a long history of being dishonest about Autopilot capabilities and dangers, and it's killed several people so far. The NHTSA is forcing them to make some tweaks. (Not arguing that autopilot is on the whole any more or less safe than human drivers. Just that Tesla has a history of misrepresentation.)

> It's because the NHTSA forced them into a safety related "recall". It's not just a regular OTA update. And how does this "recall" work? Is it physically taking the car to a branch to apply the update? I'm curious to know.

The only difference between a regular OTA update and this one is that you will also get a letter in your mailbox notifying you of this.

If you miss that letter in the mail or don’t read patchnotes, this recall OTA update will get autoinstalled just like any other regular OTA update without you even noticing anything special about it.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#126

Post by fleeno »

acdha wrote: post #114
brandonagr2 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a regular OTA update. Negligent drivers have killed people, not autopilot capabilities. Take the example in the recent Washington Post article where a driver ran through a stop sign at a T intersection, left the road, and killed a bystander. What the article didn't say is that the system reduced cruise set point to 45 mph due to the road type, but the driver was _holding down the accelerator pedal_ to maintain…

> What the article didn't say is that the system reduced cruise set point to 45 mph due to the road type, but the driver was _holding down the accelerator pedal_ to maintain 60 mph as it flew through the stop sign. The driver admitted they knew they were responsible for the controlling the car. Do you have a source for that claim? The earlier news coverage said that the driver set the speed to 44mph, and that the dat…

That wasn't my comment, but I happened to have the source already open: https://twitter.com/Tesla/status/1734374558105293081?s=20

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#127

Post by fleeno »

From my Model Y manual:

"Autosteer is intended for use on controlled-access highways with a fully attentive driver. Do not use Autosteer in construction zones, or in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present."

GM and Ford both restrict their systems to controlled access highways, and are hands free when doing so. I wish Tesla would do something similar.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#128

Post by acdha »

fleeno wrote: post #126
acdha wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the article didn't say is that the system reduced cruise set point to 45 mph due to the road type, but the driver was _holding down the accelerator pedal_ to maintain 60 mph as it flew through the stop sign. The driver admitted they knew they were responsible for the controlling the car. Do you have a source for that claim? The earlier news coverage said that the driver set the speed to 44mph, and that the dat…

That wasn't my comment, but I happened to have the source already open: https://twitter.com/Tesla/status/1734374558105293081?s=20

Thanks - I hadn’t seen more recent sources than the NYT story which had it at unclear a couple of years ago:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/business/tesla-autopilot-...

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#129

Post by cush »

MetaWhirledPeas wrote: post #70
MBCook wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is loaded. It means a critical safety issue has been found by the government and they’re forcing it to be fixed. That comes with various timeline and notification requirements. That’s all it means. Whether or not you have to drive to a specific building to get it done is not and never has been a requirement of the recall process. That’s just how automakers have done it, mostly out of lack of OTA and unwillingness…

Words matter. "Recall" had a very specific meaning in the past before OTA updates: your vehicle was recalled to the dealership to be retrofitted for safety reasons, which is obviously very inconvenient for the owner of the vehicle. These OTA "recalls" are safety issues too, but the wording still implies the inconvenience of dropping your car off to be altered by a mechanic, which is not the case . New terminology wou…

There’s not much to debate in convenience vs safety...

It’s an implied inconvenience (taking the car in) that doesn’t actually exist (people aren’t actually taking their cars in), vs accurately conveying a public safety message (the recall indicated the car needs to be fixed). OTA updates aren’t infallible. It’s safer to be over cautious.

Re: Tesla Recalls 2M Vehicles over Autopilot Software Issue

#130

Post by cush »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #69
MBCook wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is loaded. It means a critical safety issue has been found by the government and they’re forcing it to be fixed. That comes with various timeline and notification requirements. That’s all it means. Whether or not you have to drive to a specific building to get it done is not and never has been a requirement of the recall process. That’s just how automakers have done it, mostly out of lack of OTA and unwillingness…

We need a different word. This is not a recall.

How would you manage this? If a recall is ordered, and a OTA update is possible… undo the recall and change the name of the recall…?

Again there’s no way for the regulator to know how the recall should be fixed. It makes no sense to give it a different name just to appease the semantics of not actually driving the car to a shop to fix the problem.

Post reply on HN