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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#121

Post by raganwald »

daenz wrote: post #116
raganwald wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there IS changing everyone's behaviour. In my lifetime, drunk driving and spoual abuse have become socially unacceptable. Overt racism has become socially unacceptable. Two women got engaged at centre-ice in a hockey game, a bastion of blue-collar society. All these changes happened because people said, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!"

> In my lifetime, drunk driving and spoual abuse have become socially unacceptable Seeing the change in your lifetime does not mean the entire process occurred in your lifetime. How many lifetimes is it taking for women, gays, and black people to become treated as equals, and we're still not there. Like I said, it takes lifetimes. I'm not saying don't fight discrimination. I'm saying she should consider her health. U…

Hey, growing up all sorts of Black people decided to "not make waves" and all sorts of gay peple decided to live in the closet. I'm grateful for the people who made other chouces and didn't listen to the "voice of reason."

It's a game theory thing, isn't it? Fighting is cooperating, and lightening up is defecting, and the payoff for cooperating takes years or decades and only happens when enough people ooperate to make change.

Re: "Lighten up"

#122

Post by daenz »

tptacek wrote: post #82
daenz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're right. That is the healthiest approach for her. Which makes dealing with the bullshit that people fling at her for not having thicker skin all the more valuable. She could go along to get along, but hasn't, so everyone else won't have to go along with this crap too. Sorry, I'm a little tired today, could you rephrase this so it's easier to tell if you're being sarcastic? (serious question)

I am literally saying that you are right. The easiest thing for her to do, the thing with the best personal outcome, is to lighten up and get on with her life. The problem is that is also the response with the worst outcome for the field in general. So, what I'm saying is, she's taking a hit (for instance, by being told to "stop victimizing herself" and to just work harder) in order to stand up against this stuff. An…

> You put a little smiley face after your comment because you thought it was amusing. It's not funny.

That's the beauty of humor: different things are funny to different people. I'll send you an email when I'm going to start catering my comments to you and your sensibilities :)

Re: "Lighten up"

#123

Post by [deleted] »

Tichy wrote: post #34

Outside of IT, nobody ever comments on low cut dresses? I am glad I don't have to deal with things like the ones mentioned in the article, just wanted to chime in and say that most programming jobs suck anyway. So it seems possible to me that the expression of the suckiness apparently took on some sexist form, that is not to say that the male colleagues don't suffer through crap in the same job. It is definitely poss…

[deleted]

Re: "Lighten up"

#124

Post by kitsune_ »

msbarnett wrote: post #119
Tichy wrote: post #34

Outside of IT, nobody ever comments on low cut dresses? I am glad I don't have to deal with things like the ones mentioned in the article, just wanted to chime in and say that most programming jobs suck anyway. So it seems possible to me that the expression of the suckiness apparently took on some sexist form, that is not to say that the male colleagues don't suffer through crap in the same job. It is definitely poss…

> Outside of IT, nobody ever comments on low cut dresses? In the workplace? Not if they want to keep their job. Seriously, in most industries nobody would blink twice if someone was fired on the spot for saying that they were going to sit across from a woman wearing a low-cut dress so that they could ogle her breasts. IT has, comparatively, incredibly low standards of professional behaviour.

I have to disagree. This shit happens everywhere. My mother was a kindergarten teacher, this was normal stuff when dealing with school officials. Same thing with my gf who works in advertisement. Or many of my friends who work in the fashion industry. It also happens in restaurants, kitchens, normal office environments, lawyer partnerships (!) and so on.

Re: "Lighten up"

#125

Post by netmau5 »

I like to joke around and have a good time while doing serious work. This isnt some profound optimization technique, just something that makes my day happier and usually that of those around me. However, my general rule of thumb is to never directly engage a female at the workplace outside of a purely professional, subdued necessity. They are too sensitive. While I know I have good intentions and care for their happiness, not everyone has the same level of empathy. So I simply avoid getting grouped into the fratboy category even when I really do want them to just lighten up a bit. I personally find blanket invitations to after-work drinks to be a better environment to get more friendly with the ladies on the team, most will drop their shields a few notches.

Re: "Lighten up"

#126

Post by chernevik »

larrys wrote: post #62
tptacek wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is not the one moron who does it; the point is having herself to escalate the issue to HR. She's the victim, but she has to play the role of the "problem". Try to think about what you'd do if you were in the room with a team member who made a comment like that. I know what I'd do, and I don't think it is an industry norm yet. We need to get there. If it helps you to see it: think about what you'd do if a te…

"Try to think about what you'd do if you were in the room with a team member who made a comment like that. I know what I'd do, and I don't think it is an industry norm yet." I don't think things like this are clear cut like you are saying. What if you were unemployed for 2 years and then got a new job? And for an entrepreneur? Say for some reason your company isn't doing well. You go and pitch a big account that coul…

First, you're discussing edge cases. If people step to the easy stuff a great deal of the problem goes away.

Second, these responses needn't be binary, you can signal a lot of antipathy with body language and conversational subtext. When the commenter is just clueless -- and a lot of these people are just that -- the hint that they're out of line is often all it takes.

I'm not saying settle for subtle when confrontational is called for. But subtle and quiet are frequently all that's needed.

Re: "Lighten up"

#127

Post by Tichy »

tptacek wrote: post #92
Tichy wrote: post #34

Outside of IT, nobody ever comments on low cut dresses? I am glad I don't have to deal with things like the ones mentioned in the article, just wanted to chime in and say that most programming jobs suck anyway. So it seems possible to me that the expression of the suckiness apparently took on some sexist form, that is not to say that the male colleagues don't suffer through crap in the same job. It is definitely poss…

Are you OK with being on a team where one of your teammates feels stressed out, defensive, and alienated because of comments being made by another member of your team? Would you be OK with it if the comments were about their personal appearance? Their hair? The quality of their clothing? Their accent? Lots of funny jokes to be had about accents! Are you OK with any of this? No? I didn't think so. Me neither. So what…

What I meant is this: she quit programming because she was in sucking programming jobs. She should have looked for a non-sucking programming job. This is not so much different from what most men in programming jobs experience - being in a job that sucks, and actively having to look for a better one.

Edit: maybe I can't relate because my tendency is to quit if I find myself in a job that I don't like. This has happened to me a lot of times already. Perhaps others are more in a "heck, I'll change this place to suit me" frame of mind. I never understood that notion, or perhaps I am just too pessimistic about the ability of "places" to change. I reckon if you don't like how company x operates, find a better job or start your own company so that YOU can define the rules.

Re: "Lighten up"

#128

Post by chipsy »

klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

Being faced with that kind of struggle is good. Everyone who's lived long enough can recall some time when they were, in hindsight, a horrible person. And if you're aware of it, you're winning.

No pain, no gain.

Re: "Lighten up"

#129

Post by desireco42 »

I just can't relate to this post. I can't say you are inventing things, but maybe change companies a little, discover something different, don't just complain. As consultant I see quite a lot of different companies and believe I have good idea what can be seen.

I am annoyed by childish behavior of my colleagues, this has nothing to do with me being able to handle it, just I would like to work somewhere where I don't have to deal with it all the time. Also, some female colleagues left field because constant learning was just too much for them and they wanted someplace where they don't have to invest so much of them. Totally reasonable.

Again, can't relate to what you are describing and your description is in no way characteristic for IT, it might be corporate lack of culture in your workplace.

Re: "Lighten up"

#130

Post by hellerbarde »

raganwald wrote: post #61
daenz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is what I said dismissive? I take her concern seriously, and I gave her my opinion of the best option for her health. I'm being a realist here, there is no "changing everyones behavior." There is only changing your perspective.

But there IS changing everyone's behaviour. In my lifetime, drunk driving and spoual abuse have become socially unacceptable. Overt racism has become socially unacceptable. Two women got engaged at centre-ice in a hockey game, a bastion of blue-collar society. All these changes happened because people said, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!"

You, sir are correct.

Incidentally, daenz is also correct. Albeit with a little addition to what he says:

"There is no changing everyones behaviour in a matter of days."

Which means that daenz's suggestion is the "best" (as in "highest gain") solution in the short run. It is not incompatible with simultaneously trying to change people's behaviour in the long run.

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