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The new science of meditation

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121–130 of 396 posts

Re: The new science of meditation

#121
post #30

Think of cessation, also scripturally described as the “non-occurrence of consciousness,” like voluntarily inducing the effects of general anesthesia. Consciousness switches off without a trace, while the basic homeostatic operations of the body — temperature, heartbeat, breathing — remain online. - Isn't this like the nirvana of nirvanas ? I had heard about some of the monks in the Himalayas able to attain these sta…

At least in Theravada Buddhism this isn’t the right way to conceive of enlightenment with respect to samati, or meditative states.

The mind is composed of several faculties, that spring from themselves, and lead to certain states of being that ultimately lead to suffering. The key ones for this discussion are the thinking mind (or in Thailand the monkey mind), which is what we typically dwell in. It’s the mind that tells stories about the past and the future, where we talk with people in conversations we won’t have or wish we had had, where we identify ourselves as being something specific. We also have a feeling mind, or emotive mind. It doesn’t form structured thoughts like the thinking mind, but it creates impetus and acts in a feedback loop with the thinking mind. A lot of our misery comes from this feedback loop. We also have a sensate mind, which is where we feel our body, all sensations but we tend to focus our thinking and emotive mind on pleasurable and unpleasant sensations.

In Theravada Buddhism these faculties are emergent but are not true experience of our true selves. They are tools of our true mind, but have become dominant and exclusionary, hiding our true self. Our true self is our awareness, which exists without thought or feelings, but is the source of all thoughts and feelings. It constantly changes, it has no identity per se, but it is not unconscious. It is where we actually are, all thoughts exist in context of it, but it’s thinking isn’t visible or directly experienced in the way thoughts or feelings are.

People often find this confusing and find the admonition to not think in vipassana meditation to mean erase all mental existence and be a body without any being. That’s actually not at all the goal. The goal is to silence the mind that chatters for a bit, the emotions that pull us and manipulate our thoughts to sooth, so we can be aware of our awareness. You are still fully awake - intensely so in fact. You still “feel,” but the feelings are compassion and loving kindness, and they’re not feelings that control you or make your sensate body feel some experience (such as a tight chest or thrill) or capture your chattering thoughts.

Eventually thoughts and feelings will intrude and the goal then is to see them for what they are, facilities of your mind, and to let them be there but don’t let them capture your awareness

By practicing this in meditation you can bridge this state into daily life. As you spend more time aware but not chattering away, you are more in the present and in the immediate now. You find you only feel compassion and loving kindness for all like, and anger, hate, and fear are artifacts of those faculties. They can be helpful in some situations, but they are fairly rare situations. It feels strange at first to not be totally enmeshed in your thoughts. At first I was afraid I would disappear if I did this, sort of like the quote you have. But I didn’t. Who I wasn’t disappeared, and I became myself for the first time since I was a little child.

Re: The new science of meditation

#122
post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

It seems like you're heading down a rabbit hole. All you can do is have experiences (instead of just believing on faith). If you do, it's up to you to make sense of them. Trying to decide what is "real" sounds like an egoic distraction to divert you from continuing to make progress. The usual advice I hear is just to keep going.

Re: The new science of meditation

#123
post #65
post #57

I’ve been meditating casually for almost 10 years, I couldn’t sit still for a minute when I started and can sit regularly for an hour now. I still have a lot of skepticism about the sensations that other meditators describe feeling, like jhanas and profound states of tranquility and whatnot. I have experienced deeper calmness and have made some insights about my brain (eg thoughts are like a sensor organ not unlike a…

Supernatural claims made by meditators that are obviously not true are what keep me from experimenting with meditation. I don't want to mess up my brain. I value it. All the senior meditators I know have some element of irrationality. The openness that meditation seems to promote seems to also promote a certain level of gullibility that I did not expect from them. Obviously, an out of body experience is not really tr…

I see, so you can confidently discount someone else's experience as obviously not true, especially without any real attainment yourself? That just doesn't work on so many levels.

Re: The new science of meditation

#124

In Hinduism, meditation is not just a calming practice, but an actual movement toward God. And in the tradition I follow, it is also not for beginners. Basic discipline — the following of the Yamas (restraints of non-violence, truthfulness, non-stealing, etc.) — is recommended first.

Exactly. How many Westerners are trying to meditate without a conscious belief in a Higher Power, an Infinite Creator, God, or such? I wonder if there may be negative spiritual effects by employing meditation without seeking closeness with divinity.

We've stripped off the religious part and rebranded it as mindfulness. There have been reports of having positive impact on mental health.

Re: The new science of meditation

#125
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supernatural claims made by meditators that are obviously not true are what keep me from experimenting with meditation. I don't want to mess up my brain. I value it. All the senior meditators I know have some element of irrationality. The openness that meditation seems to promote seems to also promote a certain level of gullibility that I did not expect from them. Obviously, an out of body experience is not really tr…

One probably needs a bit of religiousity to be able to meditate as much as senior meditators do.

I think you just need to find something in it that makes it worthwhile. Being a productive member of society is a choice, but not the only way someone could choose to spend their time. I think in Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha the author says once someone makes real progress (reaching what he calls arising and passing away) people often feel drawn to meditate full time and may join a monastery. I probably would if I had sufficiently transformative insights that made society's goals seem pointless. I mean, you don't still play the same games or have the same goals as when you were 5. This is a process of realisation and maturity.

Re: The new science of meditation

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you give an example of beliefs/ideas you've let go of, or discovered can't be known to be true? I've been trying to understand the pros/cons of psychotherapy vs meditation, as both of them seem to involve letting go of false beliefs. But while there are a lot of examples of this in psychotherapy and the mechanisms are well-documented, it's hard to find first-person accounts regarding meditation that aren't just…

Psychotherapy works on the "self": your problems, your history. One of the aims of mediation is to gradually understand that this self is really an illusion, hence there are in fact no problems and no history. Past does not really define who you are, and problems are only problems if you think reality should be different that what it currently is the moment you experience it (which is of course totally impossible. Wh…

Meditation and therapy aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, for people who have traumas, I would say both are necessary. Very few meditation teachers are trained in handling a psychological crisis and mental break downs happen often in retreats and self-led practice.

Re: The new science of meditation

#127
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you give an example of beliefs/ideas you've let go of, or discovered can't be known to be true? I've been trying to understand the pros/cons of psychotherapy vs meditation, as both of them seem to involve letting go of false beliefs. But while there are a lot of examples of this in psychotherapy and the mechanisms are well-documented, it's hard to find first-person accounts regarding meditation that aren't just…

For me, it was about confronting deliberate self deception. In my mind I always told myself that "I dont have time to exercise", when the truth was, I was too lazy to exercise. While I was meditating, this profound clarity came to me, it wasn't a case of a tyranny-like self-harming disclipinary action about my deliberate self deception, it was more like a great washing of positive emotion that framed exercise as "thi…

An hour day seems like a high threshold (I'm not saying it is, just my perception).

Are there diminishing returns pas 15 minutes or 30 minutes etc?

Re: The new science of meditation

#128

"Along a less-traveled route, meditation remains what it long was: a deeply transformative pursuit, a devoted metamorphosis of the mind toward increasingly enlightened states." This pretty much lines up with what meditation has done for me. However, the pursuit of "states" can be a trap in of itself. As my practice has gotten deeper, I've started to reframe meditation for myself as the process of unrelenting inquiry…

Indeed.

Ultimately, unrelenting inquiry came to: "I am."

Re: The new science of meditation

#129
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't help but feel the recent societal interest in meditation and psychedelics is wrongheaded in that it's treating a symptom rather than a cause. I agree, but the question emerges "what is treatable?" Many of the thousands of causes of stress in modern life can't be changed by an individual: I can't unelect politicians I disagree with, clean up the air where I live, or make the roads I travel significantly less…

> Many of the thousands of causes of stress in modern life can't be changed by an individual The counterpoint is essentially that if people engaged in social outward-looking collective action , as opposed to solitary inward-looking meditation, then you can change the world -- as has been demonstrated countless times. You certainly can unelect politicians in the next election. Environmental movements have made giganti…

> The counterpoint is essentially that if people engaged in social outward-looking collective action, as opposed to solitary inward-looking meditation, then you can change the world -- as has been demonstrated countless times.

Yes, it has been demonstrated, and yes it requires collective action, but no that doesn't mean I (necessarily) have the time, energy or skill to act effectively to change any one, let alone dozens or thousands of these stressors, even if they're enormously stressful to me currently. The 'bang for the buck' in my world is to address the stressors at the personal level, and hope/intend to contribute to some worthy cause as well.

Re: The new science of meditation

#130
post #50
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How come? I had the impression, people with mental disorders would profit the most from it.

Mostly because longer meditation practice is more frequently associated with something called the dark night of the soul https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-...

"Mental disorders" is overly broad. It sounds like we're talking schizophrenia here.
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