Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

oceanservice.noaa.gov

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 636 posts

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#121

Post by taeric »

binarymax wrote: post #33
Clamchop wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but why would you ever be talking about your left? Use the definite article, THE left, and it should be clear by convention for the sailors. I think it's just historical.

Imagine you are crew, standing on a ship. You are facing east, and the bow of the ship is facing north. It’s night and there is a thick fog. You hear a cry “man overboard on the left!” Where is the overboard person? Are they to your left, the ships left, or the left of the person shouting? If the cry is instead “man overboard on the port side!” there is no question.

This feels contrived, to be honest. Late at night on a vehicle that isn't moving with no other discerning factors to distinguish things, and you are basically screwed. Though, realistically, you are just going to wherever the shouting is coming from, you are not going to go slow to orient yourself to the vehicle. Even better, someone would yell something even more defining for where to catch someone that is going to be specific to the boat you are on. (Well, more realistically, you have hopefully practiced emergency drills such that the term is almost irrelevant, you have practiced so much.)

This is about as worrisome as "you are the fire department, and you are told you need to rescue some people on the 14th floor. Quick, does that mean you go up 13 flights of stairs, or 11?" Realistically, you aren't getting it right on spur of the moment decision making.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#122

Post by bryanlarsen »

tzs wrote: post #109
antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

There's also the approach taken in some Australian native languages, e.g. [1], where they use absolute directions instead of relative directions, so they would call what we call the port side of a boat the north side if the boat was heading east, and call it the west side if the boat was heading north. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuuk_Thaayorre_language

Ask a farmer for directions. In my experience it's more likely they will tell you to turn north/south/east/west than left or right.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#123

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

silisili wrote: post #118
Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #113

This is not the same explanation that I was familiar with. The one I heard was that long ago boats didn't have the rudder on the centerline, but was to one side. Because of this configuration you also had to have the dock on the other side. The rudder was called the a steer-board (eventually pronounced starboard). And the dock was the port so that became the port side. So now we have starboard and port sides of the s…

Sorry, how is it not? AFAICT this is the same thing the linked article says.

You know what. I read the article and for some reason it did not see the meaning for words. I need some sleep or coffee.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#124

Post by lamontcg »

cyberax wrote: post #35
tim_hutton wrote: post #28

The only was I can remember which is port and starboard is by thinking about boarding an airplane. The steps/tunnel are always docked on the 'port' side, just as boats always dock on the port side. The cockpit/bow is always on your left when you board.

My shortcut: "port" and "left" have the same number of letters.

the shorter word:

    port
    left
    red
the longer word;

    starboard
    right
    green

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#125

Post by smitty1e »

Retired USN Surface Warfare Officer here.

The differentiation between rudder and engine is crucial. The Conning Officer, who gives orders to the helm at the direction of the Officer of the Deck, will call rudder orders as "left standard rudder" or "right full rudder".

Engine orders will be given in terms of "all engines ahead 1/3", "back 1/3" or "port engine ahead 1/3, starboard engine back 1/3" (to put a clockwise twist on when maneuvering). Frequently when on a great circle voyage, one may have the port shaft making turns for, e.g. 13kts, and the starboard shaft just trailing in the water, for fuel efficiency.

The crucial point here is that these order terms are like strong data types in code. We do not mix them. In a stressful situation, e.g. the Straits of Malacca, the last thing anyone needs is entropy from a terminology mix-up. Lives are literally at stake.

Bonus point: the port/starboard nomenclature is also applies to spatial locations off of the centerline. Compartments go, level, frame (bow to stern numbering), centerline position. e.g.

6 4 2 0 1 3 5

Thus, as a young lad at the end of the Cold War, working on Aegis in CG-57, my computer room was O1-138-0-C.

The centerline numbering is in accordance with PESO: Port: Even, Starboard: Odd.

To this day, I set up my cel phone headset IAW PESO, based upon the day of the month. Go, Navy.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#126

Post by danielvf »

abhibeckert wrote: post #100
antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

> At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective In (musical) theatre we do it the other way around. The we call it "stage left" and "stage right" or "SL and SR" since we use abbreviations everywhere in our notes. It's always from the "stage manager's perspective" which is traditionally (but not always…

For stage directions there's also "House Left" and "House Right", which are from the perspective of the audience.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#127

Post by pbj1968 »

drewrv wrote: post #8

I understand that the terms are mostly unambiguous, but I always wonder how these get defined in edge cases. For example ferries, at least where I live, alternate the direction of travel as they go back and forth. There isn't a fixed "bow" or "stern" from which to define port and starboard.

But they are on a fixed route…

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#128

Post by tomohelix »

wpietri wrote: post #65
tomohelix wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the same reason why most biomolecules are chiral, i.e. having left and right side. Last time I read about this, I think some physicist said something about the rotation of elementary particles and radiation stuff that are way over my head.

I doubt that, as we left-handers are made up of the same sort of molecule as everybody else.

Haha no, I think you misunderstood. I meant the underlying reason for human to have a preferred "side" is probably the same reason that life has a preferred "side" for chemicals. Both humans and enzymes can be chiral, i.e. asymmetrical so I think they might be connected.

Don't worry, I am not an atom-ist or a chiral-ist. All sides are equal! (except the ambidextrous master race :D )

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#129

Post by CardenB »

xiphias2 wrote: post #95
CardenB wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not distracting. There are many intense situations on a boat, and a crew is required to cooperate in order to survive. This means you must have extremely precise wording to quickly explain what needs to be done. This vocabulary is important for this reason, and is able to sharpen focus, rather than distract. It requires a process of learning, and that is intentional.

If you look at statistics, most deaths occur in small boats with a crew who have no idea what these words mean, because they don't have a license. These are the most common reason of fatalities: - Not wearing a lifejacket or PFD. - Falling overboard. - Capsizing, swamping, sinking, or running aground. - Being involved in a collision. - Operating a pleasure craft while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. The goal…

I’m not sure you have really thought this through.

You’re suggesting that people avoid using port and starboard on a boat because they should be focused on learning how to not fall overboard?

Terms like “port” and “starboard” are particularly important when someone falls overboard. The last thing you want to do is tell someone to grab the man overboard “on the right side” and have them go to the wrong side of the boat in a crucial moment. This is why these things exist. We have been sailing for hundreds of years and are very good at it.

Despite this, your entire argument is a bit ridiculous. It is not zero sum- port and starboard do not take up “brain space” that causes you to forget a life jacket. Boat training will help you ensure the safety of the passengers AND teach you “port” and “starboard”.

Re: Why do ships use “port” and “starboard” instead of “left” and “right?”

#130

Post by jdietrich »

abhibeckert wrote: post #100
antognini wrote: post #89

It's interesting to compare how different professions handle the ambiguity in left/right. In the maritime world they went with an approach at one extreme, where they just use two completely separate words, "port" and "starboard." (Though that's far from the only case where there's a special word for something on a boat.) At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical s…

> At the other extreme you have the medical profession where the first thing you learn in medical school is that left/right always refer to the patient's perspective In (musical) theatre we do it the other way around. The we call it "stage left" and "stage right" or "SL and SR" since we use abbreviations everywhere in our notes. It's always from the "stage manager's perspective" which is traditionally (but not always…

In the automotive trade, a vehicle has a "driver's side" and "passenger side". This only partly solves the ambiguity, because of course some countries drive on the left.
Post reply on HN