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Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

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Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#121

Post by citrate05 »

Name_Chawps wrote: post #85
talentedcoin wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong disagree. It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable, and I personally find it frustrating when people excuse their behaviour in the manner you are doing. Yes work sucks, but being unpleasant, cynical and snarky just makes it even worse. Roll up your sleeves and help or please get out of the way.

This study, and the person you're replying to, are using the term disagreeable in the Big Five psychology sense. They don't mean unpleasant, cynical, or snarky. Sometimes disagreeable people are snarky, but they don't have to be. You do, actually, have to be disagreeable to disagree. Agreeable people don't like to cause a fuss and just go along with stuff even if they disagree internally. Disagreeable people are the…

But the Big Five Inventory [1] does explicitly ask if subjects consider themselves to sometimes be cold, distant, rude, unkind, selfish, or inconsiderate of others, and these answers are all used to compute their (dis)agreeableness scores. Similar questions also show up in other inventories. So, without even getting into any other behaviors these traits might correlate with, the Big 5 definition of "disagreeable" extends well beyond literally just tending to disagree with others.

[1] https://arc.psych.wisc.edu/self-report/big-five-inventory-bf...

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#122

Post by citrate05 »

xen2xen1 wrote: post #107
kyleyeats wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you do it the other way? If you started off as disagreeable and had to learn agreeability? Do you think you could do that without ever being an ass? Do you think it's fair that you got a chance to develop towards a happy middle but someone working from the other end would never get that chance?

I have trouble believing someone could never end up starting as an ass, and end up been agreeable. I've known too many people who have moderated over the course of their lives. However, everyone who even tries to stand up to anyone else risks being an ass, so everyone with a backbone probably will be at some point.

Most people naturally become more agreeable over the courses of their lives (as well as less neurotic and more conscientious). Beyond that, intentional personality change also seems to be possible. For example, this is a study that used a coaching app to help people change aspects of their personality [1]; apparently, people who wanted to increase agreeableness did see pretty large effect sizes.

[1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2017548118

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#123

Post by throwaway81523 »

derbOac wrote: post #28

This is interesting because it counters the idea that someone has to be a jerk to get ahead. However I'm also not sure the study really examined the idea too well, and ended up feeling like it's the sort of thing that could be misinterpreted and overleveraged. In my personal experience (which is limited) there's a certain constellation of organizational characteristics that leads to disagreeable individuals attaining…

> This is interesting because it counters the idea that someone has to be a jerk to get ahead.

One can be a jerk without being disagreeable. Think of the classic smooth talking con artist.

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#124

Post by woopwoop24 »

i think as we get older, we get better at distancing ourselves and realizing that work is just work. But as the one always the most dissatisfied with what we do and how we do it and what is left out, i try to understand and give empathy than the easier solution which would be head through the wall :)

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#125

Post by P_I_Staker »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #84
P_I_Staker wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because they're exaggerating or intentionally choosing to believe a simple narrative. Lots of people find they have to make a few decisions that are upsetting, even damaging to others, in order to get ahead. Maybe when people see this, they assume that because a nice person would never do that, nice people can't get ahead. The truth is that the decision could be more complicated, with some people being helped, w…

I have to ask: Are you a nice guy who’s struggling to get ahead? You seem to be suffering from the symptoms described in the sibling comment > All of our own flaws are minor, while other people's flaws are major. And of course it’s jealousy, and not just for the elite either. Most people hate to see anybody succeed.

Are you replying to the wrong comment? I never said that and someone else did.

I consider myself a gray area guy that's gotten exactly where they planned to, and doesn't really care about "getting ahead"... in many ways I'd rather not, as long as the checks keep clearing, and the pay is decent enough.

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#126

Post by _8j50 »

derbOac wrote: post #28

This is interesting because it counters the idea that someone has to be a jerk to get ahead. However I'm also not sure the study really examined the idea too well, and ended up feeling like it's the sort of thing that could be misinterpreted and overleveraged. In my personal experience (which is limited) there's a certain constellation of organizational characteristics that leads to disagreeable individuals attaining…

I really would like to know what is "disagreeable" does it mean being mean to people in obvious ways a lot? In that case of course. But in my experience most people in corporate settings will stab you in the back when it suits them, blame things on you, take credit falsley,etc... all while smiling and being sociable. So you can have an agreeable personality and still be a shitty person based on how you actually behave.

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#127

Post by civilized »

kyleyeats wrote: post #113
civilized wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got The Fixer. Very interesting test. I'm kind of impressed/mystified at how it got so much information about me from those questions. Like Myers-Briggs but seemingly both more ambitious theoretically and using fewer questions. I wonder how it would fare under psychometric validation (as I understand MBTI doesn't fare well despite being so popular and so many people including me finding insight there). Re: agreeabi…

Thanks! Yeah the test is super creepy. You can email me if you have questions (see profile). The "disgust" in your result (I have one too) is what's rare in tech and mostly what I'm talking about here. The Fixer is holding the entire industry together, from where I'm sitting, and the only archetype I ever 'click' with (I'm fear/disgust/pride, so we both have that instant inner critical voice). They are really good at…

One other comment - I appreciate the work to endow the mess of emotions with a bit of vector space structure :)

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#128

Post by mcguire »

mdcds wrote: post #116
talentedcoin wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong disagree. It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable, and I personally find it frustrating when people excuse their behaviour in the manner you are doing. Yes work sucks, but being unpleasant, cynical and snarky just makes it even worse. Roll up your sleeves and help or please get out of the way.

> It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable, -1 for strawman disagreeing with someone and raking high on Disagreeableness BigFive trait are two different things

Yes, and the comment being responded to is asserting it's impossible to disagree without being disagreeable.

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#129

Post by mcguire »

kyleyeats wrote: post #105
mcguire wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Disagreeableness is a relatively stable aspect of personality that involves the tendency to behave in quarrelsome, cold, callous, and selfish ways (1). ... For example, disagreeable people tend to be hostile and abusive to others (2), deceive and manipulate others for their own gain (3), and ignore others’ concerns or welfare (4). " Your comments such as "...as pariahs", "if you don't have disagreeable people to so…

My argument is that disagreeable people aren't inherently bad. Your argument is that I'm disagreeable so I'm inherently bad. I get it. You don't like disagreeable people. We can just agree to disagree here. I'm not asking anything of you. If were to make demands, it'd be in the form of helpful emotional advice: Hire so that at least 1 out of 6 people at your company are disagreeable. Don't ever allow agreeability sil…

If I were to give advice, I'd suggest not taking advice from someone who thinks that you are insane, that you hate half of humanity, or that you treat them as pariahs simply because they are quarrelsome, hostile, abusive, and manipulative.

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#130

Post by kyleyeats »

mcguire wrote: post #129
kyleyeats wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My argument is that disagreeable people aren't inherently bad. Your argument is that I'm disagreeable so I'm inherently bad. I get it. You don't like disagreeable people. We can just agree to disagree here. I'm not asking anything of you. If were to make demands, it'd be in the form of helpful emotional advice: Hire so that at least 1 out of 6 people at your company are disagreeable. Don't ever allow agreeability sil…

If I were to give advice, I'd suggest not taking advice from someone who thinks that you are insane, that you hate half of humanity, or that you treat them as pariahs simply because they are quarrelsome, hostile, abusive, and manipulative.

An improvement! At least this advice isn't in whiny, woe-is-me fairy tale format.
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