Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#101

Post by mcguire » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 8:08 PM UTC

HWR_14 wrote: post #95

kyleyeats wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not jerks. We're people who notice problems. You're shooting the messenger. Every problem that tech has comes from treating disagreeable people as pariahs. Organizational bloat and tech debt are still issues even when we're not there. Avoid hiring disagreeable people and you'll arrive at the stereotypical tech org that can't get anything done. If you don't have disagreeable people to solve your issues, you have…

You don't quite get the Big Five personality trait. It's poorly labelled, I'll grant. But "disagreeable (big five sense)" and "disagreeing with people" have no correlation I am aware of. I am also not aware of any studies showing that disagreeable people are more likely to voice their disagreements in a group setting. > Would you similarly discriminate against anxious people? As a bomb-disposal tech? Yes. As a cashie…

A solitary programmer, as in someone who never has to interface with another person?

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#102

Post by wizofaus » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 8:24 PM UTC

HWR_14 wrote: post #97

kleer001 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we’ve chosen to reward in society It's not a conscious choice. And it's not a choice with even odds against the alternative. It's choice with more benefits than deficits. Historically (back to the very beginning of us as social animals) these are the type of people that quickly and surely make high risk and high reward decisions. And those are the types of decisions that determine life or death, feast or famine, in…

In the wild, is "high risk, high reward" really the decision you want to make?

If there's a dearth of low-risk options (which undoubtedly has been true at many points in our evolutionary history) then I'd say "yes".

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#103

Post by mcguire » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 8:24 PM UTC

kyleyeats wrote: post #68

derbOac wrote: post #28

This is interesting because it counters the idea that someone has to be a jerk to get ahead. However I'm also not sure the study really examined the idea too well, and ended up feeling like it's the sort of thing that could be misinterpreted and overleveraged. In my personal experience (which is limited) there's a certain constellation of organizational characteristics that leads to disagreeable individuals attaining…

We're not jerks. We're people who notice problems. You're shooting the messenger. Every problem that tech has comes from treating disagreeable people as pariahs. Organizational bloat and tech debt are still issues even when we're not there. Avoid hiring disagreeable people and you'll arrive at the stereotypical tech org that can't get anything done. If you don't have disagreeable people to solve your issues, you have…

"Disagreeableness is a relatively stable aspect of personality that involves the tendency to behave in quarrelsome, cold, callous, and selfish ways (1). ... For example, disagreeable people tend to be hostile and abusive to others (2), deceive and manipulate others for their own gain (3), and ignore others’ concerns or welfare (4)."

Your comments such as "...as pariahs", "if you don't have disagreeable people to solve your issues, you have to use the other tool: Layoffs", "insane", and "hate" are exactly the sort of quarrelsome, manipulative statements that make working with someone 'disagreeable' so difficult. You aren't noticing problems; you're not pointing them out. What you are doing is demanding everyone else adapt to you, and you are using twisted emotional, disingenuous language to do it.

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#104

Post by kyleyeats » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 8:41 PM UTC

bena wrote: post #54

derbOac wrote: post #28

This is interesting because it counters the idea that someone has to be a jerk to get ahead. However I'm also not sure the study really examined the idea too well, and ended up feeling like it's the sort of thing that could be misinterpreted and overleveraged. In my personal experience (which is limited) there's a certain constellation of organizational characteristics that leads to disagreeable individuals attaining…

I think people have gotten things conflated. You don't have to be a jerk to get ahead. And being a jerk won't get you ahead. What you need is to not care if you look like a jerk. Sometimes you'll feel you're right so strongly that you'll just not care if people disagree with you. And when you will not budge on an item at all, people are going to think of you as a bit of a jerk.

The conflation was mostly my fault. I read "disagreeable personalities" and my head went to the Big Five.

IMO a better way to think of it is that someone needs to be a jerk to get ahead. The three things we're accusing people of in this topic (being selfish, combative, and manipulative) are the three things that all companies do all the time. We want to launder that, I think.

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#105

Post by kyleyeats » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 8:54 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #103

kyleyeats wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not jerks. We're people who notice problems. You're shooting the messenger. Every problem that tech has comes from treating disagreeable people as pariahs. Organizational bloat and tech debt are still issues even when we're not there. Avoid hiring disagreeable people and you'll arrive at the stereotypical tech org that can't get anything done. If you don't have disagreeable people to solve your issues, you have…

" Disagreeableness is a relatively stable aspect of personality that involves the tendency to behave in quarrelsome, cold, callous, and selfish ways (1). ... For example, disagreeable people tend to be hostile and abusive to others (2), deceive and manipulate others for their own gain (3), and ignore others’ concerns or welfare (4). " Your comments such as "...as pariahs", "if you don't have disagreeable people to so…

My argument is that disagreeable people aren't inherently bad. Your argument is that I'm disagreeable so I'm inherently bad. I get it. You don't like disagreeable people. We can just agree to disagree here. I'm not asking anything of you.

If were to make demands, it'd be in the form of helpful emotional advice: Hire so that at least 1 out of 6 people at your company are disagreeable. Don't ever allow agreeability silos, especially not around top executives. Never let a disagreeable person serve in a leadership role unless they have at least one disagreeable person working as a direct report.

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#106

Post by kyleyeats » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 9:05 PM UTC

civilized wrote: post #76

kyleyeats wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not jerks. We're people who notice problems. You're shooting the messenger. Every problem that tech has comes from treating disagreeable people as pariahs. Organizational bloat and tech debt are still issues even when we're not there. Avoid hiring disagreeable people and you'll arrive at the stereotypical tech org that can't get anything done. If you don't have disagreeable people to solve your issues, you have…

As a self-IDed somewhat "disagreeable" person, I have mixed feelings about this. I think you're absolutely right that people who notice and articulate problems can come to be viewed negatively, and it places a double burden on them to notice the problem and then come up with the perfect way of articulating it that can't possibly hurt anyone's feelings. And if no one is willing or able to assume that burden, and there…

Great insights. Curious about your result on my personality test: https://eristicstest.com/

Disagreeable people often have an over-the-top people-pleaser side because they're bad at agreeability. For them it's usually a choice of being a doormat or a jerk.

When people are bad at agreeability in this way, but still agreeable, nobody is in a rush to correct them. Nobody threatens to quit over the doormat. But it's the exact same personality flaw, just expressed differently in Big Five terms.

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#107

Post by xen2xen1 » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 9:05 PM UTC

kyleyeats wrote: post #91

xen2xen1 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm known as the nice friend who will tell you hard things. I'm a nice guy who knows how to be a dick when I have to be. I actively work on both being "softer" as I probably have gone a bit too direct, and being more assertive as I can be too easy going. I usually like the balance I've struck, and often have people thank me after I tell them hard, serious stuff. I wish more people could do that, know so many jerks. B…

How would you do it the other way? If you started off as disagreeable and had to learn agreeability? Do you think you could do that without ever being an ass? Do you think it's fair that you got a chance to develop towards a happy middle but someone working from the other end would never get that chance?

I have trouble believing someone could never end up starting as an ass, and end up been agreeable. I've known too many people who have moderated over the course of their lives. However, everyone who even tries to stand up to anyone else risks being an ass, so everyone with a backbone probably will be at some point.

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#108

Post by kyleyeats » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 9:07 PM UTC

HWR_14 wrote: post #95

kyleyeats wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not jerks. We're people who notice problems. You're shooting the messenger. Every problem that tech has comes from treating disagreeable people as pariahs. Organizational bloat and tech debt are still issues even when we're not there. Avoid hiring disagreeable people and you'll arrive at the stereotypical tech org that can't get anything done. If you don't have disagreeable people to solve your issues, you have…

You don't quite get the Big Five personality trait. It's poorly labelled, I'll grant. But "disagreeable (big five sense)" and "disagreeing with people" have no correlation I am aware of. I am also not aware of any studies showing that disagreeable people are more likely to voice their disagreements in a group setting. > Would you similarly discriminate against anxious people? As a bomb-disposal tech? Yes. As a cashie…

You're crazy not to take the anxious bomb-disposal guys.

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#109

Post by kyleyeats » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 9:23 PM UTC

nautilius wrote: post #99

kyleyeats wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not jerks. We're people who notice problems. You're shooting the messenger. Every problem that tech has comes from treating disagreeable people as pariahs. Organizational bloat and tech debt are still issues even when we're not there. Avoid hiring disagreeable people and you'll arrive at the stereotypical tech org that can't get anything done. If you don't have disagreeable people to solve your issues, you have…

> We're not jerks. We're people who notice problems. You're shooting the messenger. The definition is literally in the title: "disagreeable personalities (selfish, combative, and manipulative)". So, yes, by definition, disagreeable people are jerks. If that's you, then you, too, are a jerk. That is completely orthogonal to "people who notice problems". If someone thinks that it's necessary to be "selfish, combative,…

I was talking about this in a Big Five sense, but yeah. I agree with you. If you're not at work to be selfish, combative and manipulative, you are not at work. What do you even do all day? Why are we here? A workplace full of people who don't need the paycheck isn't a workplace. People who aren't fighting for something don't care. People who aren't manipulating don't care about the future.

Ideas that aren't challenged suck. The same is true for people, at the individual and organizational level. I don't think believing this makes me a jerk.

Re: Disagreeable personalities do not have an advantage in power at work (2020)

#110

Post by civilized » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 9:28 PM UTC

kyleyeats wrote: post #106

civilized wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a self-IDed somewhat "disagreeable" person, I have mixed feelings about this. I think you're absolutely right that people who notice and articulate problems can come to be viewed negatively, and it places a double burden on them to notice the problem and then come up with the perfect way of articulating it that can't possibly hurt anyone's feelings. And if no one is willing or able to assume that burden, and there…

Great insights. Curious about your result on my personality test: https://eristicstest.com/ Disagreeable people often have an over-the-top people-pleaser side because they're bad at agreeability . For them it's usually a choice of being a doormat or a jerk. When people are bad at agreeability in this way, but still agreeable, nobody is in a rush to correct them. Nobody threatens to quit over the doormat. But it's the…

I got The Fixer. Very interesting test. I'm kind of impressed/mystified at how it got so much information about me from those questions. Like Myers-Briggs but seemingly both more ambitious theoretically and using fewer questions. I wonder how it would fare under psychometric validation (as I understand MBTI doesn't fare well despite being so popular and so many people including me finding insight there).

Re: agreeability, it seems like you're speaking of it as a skill more than just a personality variable. I see the skill of being prosocial and the personality trait of agreeability as separate. I see myself as a high-functioning disagreeable person, where I see things more negatively than average and have more conflictual feelings than average, but usually manage to turn it all into something effective and prosocial when working with other people.