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Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

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Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#121

Post by ajuc »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #88
ajuc wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I visited Ireland this year (+- the Wild Atlantic Way), we considered biking but I'm happy we eventually decided to hike/hitchhike/take buses cause Ireland is not designed for walking/biking. Everything's fenced, roads have crazy high speed limits for their width, there's no pavements outside cities, even forests are banned most of the time. Hitchhiking on the other hand was great - we waited for more than 15 minutes…

I wouldn't necessarily say that's true for cycling. You just need to choose your routes carefully - follow the minor roads, not the major ones you'd use in a car. I've had some lovely days cycling quiet country lanes in Ireland. Same applies in the UK, though there are some areas (principally the Home Counties) where it's difficult to find a road that isn't infested with speeding Audis.

Maybe i just don't have the intuition on what road traffic to expect in Ireland. The speed limits are like +30-50 km/h compared to a similar road in Poland (for example we walked from Derry to Letterkenny and the road was 1 lane each way with no pavement after a few km. And yet the speed limit was like 100 km/h and constant traffic. And the smaller roads were all orthogonal to it. It was similar near Donegal, it was supposed to be Wild Atlantic Way but you wouldn't want to cycle on the main road, and the small roads weren't going along the coast but towards or away from it.

Anyway, I don't want to complain too much, it was still great. The nature is superb. Just hard to get around without a car.

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#122

Post by trgn »

petsfed wrote: post #120
trgn wrote: post #101

The absence of this, at least in the US, is that there's essentially no country side properly understood. A bucolic permeable area that a city person can integrate in their daily life. The only way to enjoy the outdoors in America is as an activity. Drive there, park there. Do your thing. Come back. There's no osmosis or liminal space between urban and wilderness. It's either mechanized space for cars, or fenced off…

I'm not sure where you're living that you haven't experienced easy access to countryside. It's always been in easy reach in the 7 western states I've lived in, even in the Bay Area and the very center of Boise. In fact, if the land wasn't set aside as agricultural land, it was pretty rare that it was fenced off, even. Granted, you do see fences to keep vehicles out, but that might be an artifact of our car-centric cu…

Midwest, mid-size city. Lived eastcoast too, was the same.

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#123

Post by alistairSH »

alkonaut wrote: post #65

This should be the norm everywhere assuming non-landowners are fewer than landowners shouldn’t it? Failure to have freedom to roam/freedom of access either means a lapse in democracy (wildly popular thing never politically proposed for some reason) or some weird constitutional quirk making it hard to legislate.

Do you mean the opposite? In Scotland, something like 400 people own 50% of the land. 16 of them own 10% of the total land area.

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#124

Post by alkonaut »

alistairSH wrote: post #123
alkonaut wrote: post #65

This should be the norm everywhere assuming non-landowners are fewer than landowners shouldn’t it? Failure to have freedom to roam/freedom of access either means a lapse in democracy (wildly popular thing never politically proposed for some reason) or some weird constitutional quirk making it hard to legislate.

Do you mean the opposite? In Scotland, something like 400 people own 50% of the land. 16 of them own 10% of the total land area.

Yes - too late to edit that one lol.

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#125

Post by iudqnolq »

bennysonething wrote: post #68
raesene9 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very nice to be able to walk mostly where you want, although it doesn't always mean that landowners won't challenge you when you're walking. Also worth noting that the right to roam doesn't apply to people's gardens ( https://www.gov.scot/policies/landscape-and-outdoor-access/p... and https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/enjoying-scotlands-o... )

It applies to golf courses which I think is a bit silly. Walking on a fairway is not a good idea, and if a golf balls hits you I'm pretty certain it's the golfers fault.

It works pretty well in practice. There are signs asking you to wait if someone's about to swing and so on. And golf courses aren't that pleasant to walk on if you're not a golfer, so you tend to walk quickly along an arterial path that has plenty of golfer traffic anyway until you get to the other side.

The main reason this is convenient is there are a very long paths that would be quite inconvenient if you took away a few segments where you cross along the edge of a golf course for a few minutes.

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#126

Post by iudqnolq »

petsfed wrote: post #120
trgn wrote: post #101

The absence of this, at least in the US, is that there's essentially no country side properly understood. A bucolic permeable area that a city person can integrate in their daily life. The only way to enjoy the outdoors in America is as an activity. Drive there, park there. Do your thing. Come back. There's no osmosis or liminal space between urban and wilderness. It's either mechanized space for cars, or fenced off…

I'm not sure where you're living that you haven't experienced easy access to countryside. It's always been in easy reach in the 7 western states I've lived in, even in the Bay Area and the very center of Boise. In fact, if the land wasn't set aside as agricultural land, it was pretty rare that it was fenced off, even. Granted, you do see fences to keep vehicles out, but that might be an artifact of our car-centric cu…

In CO I routinely see signs saying things like "This Property Protected by the Second Amendment" and "Trespassers will be Shot". I take such threats seriously. I've only walked onto such a property once.

(It would have been very inconvenient not too, I knew that the person who posted the sign was lying about the area being off limits, I had very good reason to suspect they weren't on the property, and I'm usually read as white)

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#127

Post by maccard »

jerrysievert wrote: post #107
maccard wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh nice, this is really great to know. Unfortunately, this example was one of the most prominent, we had similar issues at murder hole beach [0] where the access was cut off by a bull in the field, and a few miles away from that, a walk that was built and funded by the council but had access removed after a dispute with the land owner [1]. And we've had similar experiences in Galway, Dublin, Kildare, Waterford,Wexfor…

it appears that there is a new pathway to murder hole beach, according to the article: https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/pathway-to-murder-hole-b... and it sounds like an amazing place to visit, thanks for the mention of it!

It's really a stunning place and I'm glad to see it's been resolved. I've been visiting there for 20 years at this point, and it's really a place of beauty that is worth a detour if you're nearby.

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#128

Post by Gordonjcp »

alistairSH wrote: post #118
Gordonjcp wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think Europeans may not really get how big some of these places are until they experience it first hand Conversely, I think most Americans don't get how big the UK is, or how much longer it will take to get around than you think. Look at a map of Scotland. If you start at Glasgow on the west coast about a third of the way up, and drive to Scrabster, the northern end of the A9, that will take you at least 9 hours…

And if you’re a tourist, add even more time because you’ll stop every 20 miles for a stunning view, castle, or picturesque village. ;) Driving time in Scotland is largely due to road size/design, not absolute distance. Once you get north of the Glasgow/Sterling/Edinburgh zone, you have a few “major” dual carriage ways and a lot of smaller roads. And the Highlands and Hebrides have single track, so if you’re going to…

And if you're not a tourist, you'll be somewhere in the mile-long queue of cars stuck behind them, pottering along at 25mph gripping the steering wheel with white knuckles like they've just lapped the Nurburgring in a Veyron and panic-braking every time they see a sheep within 200m of the road.

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#129

Post by lmm »

Lio wrote: post #28
lmm wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no right to roam in England & Wales in general; there are specific rights of way, but most land is privately owned and trespassing on it is illegal.

No it isn’t. Trespassing in England and Wales is NOT illegal. If you’re asked to leave you have to but trespass itself is not a crime, it’s purely a civil matter. See the opening sentence from the CPS website: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/trespass-and-nuisance-...

"Not criminal" doesn't mean "not illegal". Breach of contract is a civil matter (in general) but it's still normally described and understood as illegal.

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#130

Post by alistairSH »

Gordonjcp wrote: post #128
alistairSH wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you’re a tourist, add even more time because you’ll stop every 20 miles for a stunning view, castle, or picturesque village. ;) Driving time in Scotland is largely due to road size/design, not absolute distance. Once you get north of the Glasgow/Sterling/Edinburgh zone, you have a few “major” dual carriage ways and a lot of smaller roads. And the Highlands and Hebrides have single track, so if you’re going to…

And if you're not a tourist, you'll be somewhere in the mile-long queue of cars stuck behind them, pottering along at 25mph gripping the steering wheel with white knuckles like they've just lapped the Nurburgring in a Veyron and panic-braking every time they see a sheep within 200m of the road.

Or worse, tourist in a caravan. Most terrifying part about driving in Skye is oncoming caravans with no sense of their own width.
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