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Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

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Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#21

Post by ghusto »

daedalus_f wrote: post #16

I truly wish we had this south of the border. The public footpaths in the English Midlands seem hedged in by one Private Land No Trespassing sign after another.

We don't? I always thought we did.

You can put up a sign, but that doesn't change the law. It's like when people put up "Your car will be towed if you park here" signs where they'd _like_ you not to park, doesn't change my right to park there (does increase my chances of doing so though, because they couldn't just ask politely).

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#22

Post by lmm »

ghusto wrote: post #21
daedalus_f wrote: post #16

I truly wish we had this south of the border. The public footpaths in the English Midlands seem hedged in by one Private Land No Trespassing sign after another.

We don't? I always thought we did. You can put up a sign, but that doesn't change the law. It's like when people put up "Your car will be towed if you park here" signs where they'd _like_ you not to park, doesn't change my right to park there (does increase my chances of doing so though, because they couldn't just ask politely).

There's no right to roam in England & Wales in general; there are specific rights of way, but most land is privately owned and trespassing on it is illegal.

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#23

Post by fweimer »

maccard wrote: post #11

I live in Scotland, but grew up in Ireland (where there is no such right). The value of this cannot be understated, IMO. It's not _just_ the right, the fact that it exists forces landowners to consider access routes. Very rarely have I found myself crossing fields full of livestock or someone's front garden, because in most places the landowners have maintained or signalled a preferred walking route. It really is won…

Reading [1], is it really true under Irish law that as long as you are walking on one side of the fence (I'm not sure if “correct” is the best word to use here, given that it's clearly the dangerous side), you are not trespassing? I would expect that land ownership extends beyond the fence and includes the cliff as well.

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#25

Post by walthamstow »

rzwitserloot wrote: post #13

In the US it gets a little crazy: Land is separated out into square plots in quite a few places, especially the later-colonized west, think 'chessboard'. Companies buy all the white squares, leaving the black squares as public land. Which is now entirely inaccessible from anywhere except their private land. Lots of shady duderanch companies do this. There's an interesting legal dispute: Is crossing diagonally from on…

Something has always fascinated me about New World borders of different kinds being so square.

Iowa is divided so neatly into 99 square counties (apart from the 99th, a rectangle with a funny story), Wyoming itself is literally a four-sided shape the size of Britain.

This kind of thing is so mind-blowing to a European.

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#26

Post by Lio »

_xnmw wrote: post #12

Last summer we hiked the Bruce Trail in Ontario, Canada, and discovered for myself that the local laws are NOT so free and permitting. You can't just set up camp anywhere you want, only on predefined campsites and trails. Without that freedom camping is -much- less fun.

In England we have this weird legal gray area around wild camping.

It’s not strictly speaking legally protected but it’s not illegal either.

Trespass in England is definitely not yet a crime[1].

Apart from a few specific areas like Dartmoor where wild camping is specifically legal it amounts to, you can camp where you like but you can’t damage anything doing so and if you get asked to leave you have to.

If you don’t leave when asked to by the land owner only then it becomes a criminal matter.

The whole process becomes even murkier because it’s often hard to know who actually owns the land. A random member of the public can’t ask you to leave.

It turns out that land owners don’t often want to admit they own the land.

The whole thing is a bloody mess but can be summed up as, it’s easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission so leave no trace.

1. I say not yet because several wealthy Tory party donors have campaigned for years to change the law.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/trespass-and-nuisance-...

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#28

Post by Lio »

lmm wrote: post #22
ghusto wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't? I always thought we did. You can put up a sign, but that doesn't change the law. It's like when people put up "Your car will be towed if you park here" signs where they'd _like_ you not to park, doesn't change my right to park there (does increase my chances of doing so though, because they couldn't just ask politely).

There's no right to roam in England & Wales in general; there are specific rights of way, but most land is privately owned and trespassing on it is illegal.

No it isn’t. Trespassing in England and Wales is NOT illegal.

If you’re asked to leave you have to but trespass itself is not a crime, it’s purely a civil matter.

See the opening sentence from the CPS website:

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/trespass-and-nuisance-...

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#29

Post by walrus01 »

One of the interesting comparisons between public land and private in the US I recently encountered was on a forum about long range target shooting.

One person posted a fairly blunt statement that Texas was a modern gun owners paradise.

People concurred from many perspectives (very few limits on what you can own, etc), but also pointed out there is VERY little public land in Texas where you can go shooting independently. Everywhere you can shoot legitimately is an established range on private land, or a range of a private club, or similar. Or you have to know somebody who owns or controls a large chunk of private ranch land and will let you set up targets. Texas is almost entirely made up of private land.

As compared to California, which has famously very restrictive laws, but also has vast areas of public land (both state and federal govt owned) in some very sparsely populated rural areas, where target shooting is officially permitted as long as you meet some basic safety and no-littering standards. In California you can totally drive out into the desert and DIY your own temporary range on what will likely be BLM land.

Not possible at all in Texas. Same with public lands in WA, OR, ID in many counties.

Re: Freedom to Roam in Scotland (2019)

#30

Post by walrus01 »

rzwitserloot wrote: post #13

In the US it gets a little crazy: Land is separated out into square plots in quite a few places, especially the later-colonized west, think 'chessboard'. Companies buy all the white squares, leaving the black squares as public land. Which is now entirely inaccessible from anywhere except their private land. Lots of shady duderanch companies do this. There's an interesting legal dispute: Is crossing diagonally from on…

The US western state concept of township, range and section for land survey and land title ownership is interesting. Dry land wheat farmers in some parts of WA own entire "sections". You can see them from space east of Wenatchee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_(United_States_land_su...

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