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New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

bbc.com

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Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#121

Post by LAC-Tech »

worik wrote: post #73
Matsta wrote: post #39

I mentioned this already in a comment, but although this is a good law, the price of cigarettes is so high that most people have already moved to disposable vapes, which you can get from any Dairy (Kiwi word for a corner shop). To top that off, Crime in NZ post covid has been pretty high, and Ram Raids (driving a stolen car through a shop front) are becoming more and more frequent. With cigarettes being so expensive,…

> Crime in NZ post covid has been pretty high Crime in NZ has been trending downwards for over a decade. There has been an increase in certain types of crime, so if cherry picking, increasing crime can be made a thing. Not true tho. > . A dairy worker was stabbed to death a few weeks ago by people... They stole the cash register, not the cigarettes. > Also, the price of groceries in NZ is extortionate Yes. Far too hi…

Crime in NZ has been trending downwards for over a decade.

Reported crime does not equal actual crime. With police response time in the hours range, and a lack of prosecution, people increasingly don't bother reporting crime at all.

I remember once the emergency operator pretty much said "look it's going to take a couple of hours, do you really want to bother going through with this?". This was in a city about 2km from the police station.

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#122

Post by hellisothers »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #110
ipnon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assisted suicide is legal in New Zealand. What if I want to smoke myself to death? Absolutism from the state is so noxious. Make cigarettes prohibitively expensive and difficult to acquire sure. But complete prohibition is an infringement on our natural right to decide what to consume.

You wanna smoke yourself to death? Do it at home. Most people want to smoke themselves to death in the open, around other people though. It's nobody's right to pollute our air for the sake of their bad habits, thus regulations.

And pay for all your medical bills out of your own pocket.

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#123

Post by mmsimanga »

CharlesW wrote: post #93
chrismat wrote: post #84

I grew up in a household with two smoking parents, and it sucked. So on a personal level, nothing would be better than the world collectively giving up the nasty habit. However, I would never, ever advocate or vote for forcing people to do that. Why? Because you could make the exact same case for every single vice. Alcohol has zero benefits for your health - don't even try to give me the "but wine has antioxidants" B…

> I grew up in a household with two smoking parents, and it sucked. It sounds like you're saying that their freedom to inflict harm on you was more important than your freedom from the harmful health effects of secondhand smoke. Can that be true?

I presume the two smokers did more than just smoke. If they were parents They probably also provided food, education, love and whole lot of other things than just secondary smoke. Life tends to be a complex mix of good and bad.

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#124

Post by lost_tourist »

bluescrn wrote: post #112

While obviously smoking is bad, how is this approach acceptable and not discrimination? Imagine if the approach to getting rid of ICE cars was to say 'nobody born after this date will ever be permitted to drive one, but a person born one day earlier can' - there'd be massive outrage.

Yeah but smokers are a minority (significant but small relative to the overall population) where as ICE cars are almost universal and actually serve a purpose to society, whereas smoking has no societal advantage beyond self pleasure/addiction.

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#125

Post by daemoens »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #121
worik wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Crime in NZ post covid has been pretty high Crime in NZ has been trending downwards for over a decade. There has been an increase in certain types of crime, so if cherry picking, increasing crime can be made a thing. Not true tho. > . A dairy worker was stabbed to death a few weeks ago by people... They stole the cash register, not the cigarettes. > Also, the price of groceries in NZ is extortionate Yes. Far too hi…

Crime in NZ has been trending downwards for over a decade. Reported crime does not equal actual crime. With police response time in the hours range, and a lack of prosecution, people increasingly don't bother reporting crime at all. I remember once the emergency operator pretty much said "look it's going to take a couple of hours, do you really want to bother going through with this?". This was in a city about 2km fr…

Out of curiosity, what was the crime they didn't want to go through with?

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#126

Post by polemic »

urthor wrote: post #91
chrismat wrote: post #84

I grew up in a household with two smoking parents, and it sucked. So on a personal level, nothing would be better than the world collectively giving up the nasty habit. However, I would never, ever advocate or vote for forcing people to do that. Why? Because you could make the exact same case for every single vice. Alcohol has zero benefits for your health - don't even try to give me the "but wine has antioxidants" B…

> do you really want to trust your personal decisions on health, diet, and entertainment to those elected via a popularity contest? Yes. Read the history of Teddy Roosevelt & the Food and Drug Administration. https://www.fda.gov/about-fda/fda-history If you're familiar with the political culture of Australasia, you'll realise it's an overwhelming "nanny state" culture. Also, you'll realise that Australia/New Zealand…

> They trust technocratic experts to know what's best for people. And implement.

It helps to be small & pragmatic. People (mostly) follow the rules and politicians (mostly) only implement rules with broad support. Police have wide discretion to apply laws and (mostly) do this to benefit public good.

That's not to say we don't have problems, of course, but this particular law is seen as a compromise approach to public health that more-or-less works for everyone.

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#127

Post by bdamm »

lost_tourist wrote: post #118
chrismat wrote: post #84

I grew up in a household with two smoking parents, and it sucked. So on a personal level, nothing would be better than the world collectively giving up the nasty habit. However, I would never, ever advocate or vote for forcing people to do that. Why? Because you could make the exact same case for every single vice. Alcohol has zero benefits for your health - don't even try to give me the "but wine has antioxidants" B…

I think there are levels to it though. Smoking is across the board "fucking awful". Whereas a glass of wine a day isn't going to really stress your liver (presupposing no existing issues), whereas a pack of smokes a day absolutely will do damage to your healthy lungs. Also second hand smoke is a big deal.

Is there such a thing as "a glass of wine"? Usually it is "two" unless you happen to always dine in groups of four.

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#128

Post by arghnoname »

CharlesW wrote: post #93
chrismat wrote: post #84

I grew up in a household with two smoking parents, and it sucked. So on a personal level, nothing would be better than the world collectively giving up the nasty habit. However, I would never, ever advocate or vote for forcing people to do that. Why? Because you could make the exact same case for every single vice. Alcohol has zero benefits for your health - don't even try to give me the "but wine has antioxidants" B…

> I grew up in a household with two smoking parents, and it sucked. It sounds like you're saying that their freedom to inflict harm on you was more important than your freedom from the harmful health effects of secondhand smoke. Can that be true?

I think what it comes down to is who is decided what's harmful and do you trust those institutions.

Is spanking harmful? It seems close to one of those things that get one into trouble with CPS

What about letting a kid walk home from school on their own? We've seen parents get into trouble for that.

How about letting the kid watch tv or eat too much junk food?

What about teaching them certain ideas, ranging from racism to creationism to socialism to Amish-like beliefs?

If you presume that parents love their children and want to do what's best for them and you inform the population of the collective belief on what is good or bad for them, parents will do their best to make careful trade-offs and are in the most informed and most invested position to make those decisions.

Obviously some people are just terrible parents, but if there's any doubt at all I think we should err on parental sovereignty. Likewise, when considering what is beneficial or harmful to one's self, for the same reason, I think we should err on the side of individual sovereignty.

There are cases where individual or parental authority should be overridden, but to my mind those should be chosen very, very carefully.

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#129

Post by jayski »

lost_tourist wrote: post #118
chrismat wrote: post #84

I grew up in a household with two smoking parents, and it sucked. So on a personal level, nothing would be better than the world collectively giving up the nasty habit. However, I would never, ever advocate or vote for forcing people to do that. Why? Because you could make the exact same case for every single vice. Alcohol has zero benefits for your health - don't even try to give me the "but wine has antioxidants" B…

I think there are levels to it though. Smoking is across the board "fucking awful". Whereas a glass of wine a day isn't going to really stress your liver (presupposing no existing issues), whereas a pack of smokes a day absolutely will do damage to your healthy lungs. Also second hand smoke is a big deal.

I don't think this is a fair comparison, on one side it's a whole pack of cigarettes per day and on the other one glass of wine.

How about we compare two bottles of wine every day with a whole pack of cigarettes. I think that's comparable and both would be terrible for you.

I hate smoking, I had a really hard time quitting 8 years ago and in general I dislike being in a room where people are smoking.

However my grandmother smoked 1 cigarette every day with her morning coffee after breakfast her whole life and it did her no harm whatsoever. I think with most substances moderation is always an important factor.

Re: New Zealand passes legislation banning cigarettes for future generations

#130

Post by oceanplexian »

turbobooster wrote: post #117
megatest123 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning cigarettes is protecting public health

[flagged]

Ironically, as someone who’s been to a few communist countries, cigarettes are common, legal, and cheap. Micro managing people’s personal lives is an old school progressive philosophy that goes back to Prohibition, and before that, it was the Puritans.
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