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Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

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Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#121

Post by ahoyhere »

shadowfiend wrote: post #33
dextorious wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"""I'm so glad I was pushing 30 before I really became aware of this startup scene. The general impression that comes off, to me at least, is work hard, stop moaning, accept pennies and one day you'll be rich - assuming that unlikely outcome happens and we don't use of the thousand ways possible to screw you out of any riches.""" Startups are tax for people who are good at math, but don't bother checking their odds.

That's under the terribly flawed assumption that economic outcome is the only thing that matters. There are many other considerations that make a startup appealing (culture, for example).

That's under the terribly flawed assumption that "culture" can only be had at a "startup."

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#122

Post by ahoyhere »

neilk wrote: post #57
itmag wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, that's some cool ideas right there! Upvoted for truth and justice. I'm all for exploring unconventional lifestyle design patterns. And I have been nursing certain plans of becoming a techno-hippie :)

Thanks. By the way -- another possibility is to work for technology projects which aren't really in the startup game. A lot of my friends work for the Wikimedia Foundation, Thunderbird, Mozilla, Tor, and so on. There's no possibility of walking away as a zillionaire, but neither do you have to work with (or for) dickwads who are only in it for the money and who are out to screw you out of your share. And if you're an…

From several folks I've known who worked at Mozilla, you just trade in money-dickwads for power-dickwads.

Obviously this varies depending on where you are in the organization. But the bottom line is: there are always dicks, and they always try to screw somebody (that's what dicks do), and in startups, there are probably more of them because millions is more interesting than power over a few people.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#123

Post by ahoyhere »

itmag wrote: post #64
csallen wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you're starting a company doesn't mean you need to raise millions of dollars, work 80 hours a week, and try to become the next Facebook. Alternatively, you can raise (or save) a moderate amount of cash, work comfortably at whatever pace you choose, and build something scalable and sellable. If you're making quality software, it's not difficult to generate enough passive income to support the lifestyle yo…

Yes, that sounds like a dream come true. Got any pointers for me?

You might find my blog interesting: http://unicornfree.com - I just ran a series on pricing, and will be doing other practical nuts & bolts things soon. (Mixed with, I admit, no small amount of philosophy.)

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#124

Post by ahoyhere »

kamaal wrote: post #91
agentultra wrote: post #88

Work more, cry less, and quite all the whining... is this SV or Full Metal Jacket? That's not advice. It's ignorance. If you cannot get your work done in eight hours a day there is probably something that's off. Maybe you're underestimating the work. Maybe you're being optimistic about your deadlines. Maybe you're not being honest with yourself about how efficiently you're using your time in the day. After eight hour…

There is always, repeat always who is going to do more work than you. That's fundamentally how competition works. And the one who does more work than you do, will always have an edge over you. Both on the shorter and the longer run. There are rewards to do that extra. And that motivation will always drive a person to do more work than you do. And trust me inevitable he will end up being successful someday. You may do…

You're half right:

"There is always, repeat always who is going to do more work than you."

This is true. The trick is to be smarter than them -- do more of the right things, do the right things more right, and make wise choices to create leverage.

We could "trust you" that it is "inevitable he will end up being successful someday." OR we could look at the startup graveyard and see how many people who worked their fucking asses off, harder than anybody else, still, in the end, failed.

Because they didn't put all their focus into creating leverage, because they thought "working hard" was enough, or even "working smart."

Brute force is almost never the answer.

"Working harder" is a fool's game, because any fool can play it.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#125

Post by agentultra »

ahoyhere wrote: post #124
kamaal wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is always, repeat always who is going to do more work than you. That's fundamentally how competition works. And the one who does more work than you do, will always have an edge over you. Both on the shorter and the longer run. There are rewards to do that extra. And that motivation will always drive a person to do more work than you do. And trust me inevitable he will end up being successful someday. You may do…

You're half right: "There is always, repeat always who is going to do more work than you." This is true. The trick is to be smarter than them -- do more of the right things, do the right things more right, and make wise choices to create leverage. We could "trust you" that it is "inevitable he will end up being successful someday." OR we could look at the startup graveyard and see how many people who worked their fuc…

This.

You've nailed exactly what I was getting at. Thank you, sir.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#126

Post by shadowfiend »

ahoyhere wrote: post #121
shadowfiend wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's under the terribly flawed assumption that economic outcome is the only thing that matters. There are many other considerations that make a startup appealing (culture, for example).

That's under the terribly flawed assumption that "culture" can only be had at a "startup."

Hardly. I said there are other considerations. There is no statement therein indicating that culture can only be had at a startup. A culture exists at every company, and the culture at a particular startup may simply appeal to someone more than that of a given corporation that offers them a job. This would be one consideration, in addition to compensation, in whether to take a job there or not.

I also merely offered culture as one example, not as the only additional consideration.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#127

Post by neilk »

ahoyhere wrote: post #122
neilk wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. By the way -- another possibility is to work for technology projects which aren't really in the startup game. A lot of my friends work for the Wikimedia Foundation, Thunderbird, Mozilla, Tor, and so on. There's no possibility of walking away as a zillionaire, but neither do you have to work with (or for) dickwads who are only in it for the money and who are out to screw you out of your share. And if you're an…

From several folks I've known who worked at Mozilla, you just trade in money-dickwads for power-dickwads. Obviously this varies depending on where you are in the organization. But the bottom line is: there are always dicks, and they always try to screw somebody (that's what dicks do ), and in startups, there are probably more of them because millions is more interesting than power over a few people.

Agreed. However, I wouldn't say that the situation is entirely neutral, were we to empirically measure dickwads-encountered-per-minute.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#128

Post by MortenK »

There has been done large amounts of research on heavy overtime's effect on the productivity of software developers.

It doesn't take very much overtime for productivity to absolutely plummet. We're not talking just a small time drop here. Rather it's a free fall of 80% or so. This means that even if an engineer works 120 hours every week, he will still not be as productive as if he worked the standard 40-50!

More goofing-off time, running errands during work, an extreme increases in defect rates etc, are just some of the reasons.

Steve McConnel discusses this at length in his 1996 book "Rapid development", citing large amounts of case studies, books and other research.

The irony is that these guys who give the bravado laden "quit the whining, put in the hours" speech, are actually reducing their time-to-market, while simultaneously destroying their developers!

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#129

Post by brc »

harryh wrote: post #79

It's worth quoting pg here: "Economically, you can think of a startup as a way to compress your whole working life into a few years. Instead of working at a low intensity for forty years, you work as hard as you possibly can for four. This pays especially well in technology, where you earn a premium for working fast." http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html I don't really understand all the backlash in this thread agai…

I don't understand all the backlash and sniping either.

It's very weird - it's like walking into a room where you thought you knew everyone, but all of a sudden they're talking in a different language.

The wealth essay is very good, and I recommend it and forward it to all sorts of people.

It's all about mindset rather than actual work practices.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#130

Post by ahoyhere »

agentultra wrote: post #125
ahoyhere wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're half right: "There is always, repeat always who is going to do more work than you." This is true. The trick is to be smarter than them -- do more of the right things, do the right things more right, and make wise choices to create leverage. We could "trust you" that it is "inevitable he will end up being successful someday." OR we could look at the startup graveyard and see how many people who worked their fuc…

This. You've nailed exactly what I was getting at. Thank you, sir.

You're welcome. FYI: My name is Amy. I may be a badass with balls of steel, but I'm not a man.
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