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Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

nature.com

121–130 of 303 posts

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#121

I wish people better understood that their advocacy of and for drugs is and was pushed by the CIA to essentially deconstruct and damage a society that would otherwise organize and oppose the will of the ruling class. There is an interesting book that was recently released, The Poisoner in Chief that is a good introduction, even though it seems it is meant to also be a bit of a rehabilitation of a horrible human, Sidn…

Any links to support this theory?

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#122
I'm sort of surprised they didn't extract/synthesize psilocybin directly and administer that. Decades ago, I grew a few batches of P. Cubensis. Even amongst mushrooms from the same rice cake, the dosage wildly varies. You could have a "trip" from a tiny mushroom or eat a handful of duds.

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#123
post #113
post #90

In studies such as these with huge intersubject variability, and probably also quite large intrasubject variability from day to day on many scales, it makes sense to look at change from baseline for individuals in the various groups rather than just differences in raw scores between treatment groups. It seems by a cursory glance that most analyses done were of the latter kind, and I think then a study such as this, w…

I don't see how this may be relevant to the usefulness of microdosing. - Assume that a microdose either improves an outcome, or does nothing. Then, averaged over a large group, such random improvements would lift the group's outcome a little. It's a microdose worth taking. - Assume that a microdose can both improve and worsen the outcome, or have no effect. If the experimental group's averaged results are indistingui…

If the natural variability is high enough, then any effect will be hidden by it. Sure, we can say with some certainty that the effect of microdosing on most scales are not that huge. But we wouldn't have expected very large effect sizes anyway, because they are almost unheard off. (Unless the subjects become really severely impaired)

And there may still be meaningful treatment effects, at least judging by current standard of care for many psychiatric ailments and how those have performed in studies.

Again, I'm quite confident that the effect of many current psychiatric standard of care treatments would never have been picked up by this study. Not because they don't work (at least somewhat), but simply because there is too much noise and natural variability.

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#125
post #3

(It's strange that we're using the term microdose, even in scientific contexts - prefixes have meanings - it should be called a decidose.) Anecdotally, I've had a degree of short term success treating my depression with smallish doses of mushrooms, but I've never had the continuing access required for a microdosing regiment. It'd be nice if the government were willing to come to the table on this, but alas. That said…

> It'd be nice if the government were willing to come to the table on this, but alas.

They're starting to, although they haven't funded a study on microdosing for depression.

> [October 2021] Johns Hopkins Medicine was awarded a grant from the National Institutes of Health (NIH) to explore the potential impacts of psilocybin on tobacco addiction. This is the first NIH grant awarded in over a half century to directly investigate the therapeutic effects of a classic psychedelic

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/newsroom/news-releases/...

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything that influences your psyche in an obvious way.

Isn't Aspirin psychoactive in the same way? I.e. it takes away pain, which influences your psyche in an obvious way.

You could argue that. there is no clear line of course, but most people would agree that a beer influences them more than aspirin or an antibiothic.

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#127
post #113
post #90

In studies such as these with huge intersubject variability, and probably also quite large intrasubject variability from day to day on many scales, it makes sense to look at change from baseline for individuals in the various groups rather than just differences in raw scores between treatment groups. It seems by a cursory glance that most analyses done were of the latter kind, and I think then a study such as this, w…

I don't see how this may be relevant to the usefulness of microdosing. - Assume that a microdose either improves an outcome, or does nothing. Then, averaged over a large group, such random improvements would lift the group's outcome a little. It's a microdose worth taking. - Assume that a microdose can both improve and worsen the outcome, or have no effect. If the experimental group's averaged results are indistingui…

>This, to me. means that a microdose is a gamble not worth taking.

This has always been the problem with psychedelics as a therapeutic approach. It's hard to reconcile being a responsible clinician and recommending a therapy with such mixed and often-negative results. They are in charge of a person's mental well-being in a way that people evangelizing psychedelic therapy don't seem to properly appreciate. If a patient is interested in that therapy, they might be a better candidate, but even then... if the results aren't great it's hard to justify.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with psychedelics for personal use, and I've seen them do wonderful things for people. But I've also seen them do horrific things to people and I feel like a lot of young people have a great trip and then immediately conclude that literally every human being NEEDS to go out and trip without any more consideration. That same sort of evangelism carries over to the microdosing realm. It may have a place! But personally, I've tried it with psiolocybin, and I found that typical microdoses have a very detrimental effect on my ability to focus.

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

psychoactive drugs are a whole different category. You bring your whole mental baggage with you when you take them, unlike aspirin.

How do you define "psychoactive"?

This is so disingenuous. Psilocybin directly affects levels of different neurotransmitters in the brain. Aspirin is an anti inflammatory.

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#129

I wish people better understood that their advocacy of and for drugs is and was pushed by the CIA to essentially deconstruct and damage a society that would otherwise organize and oppose the will of the ruling class. There is an interesting book that was recently released, The Poisoner in Chief that is a good introduction, even though it seems it is meant to also be a bit of a rehabilitation of a horrible human, Sidn…

>that would otherwise organize and oppose the will of the ruling class

Eh, perhaps that was their motivation, but I'm not at all convinced that would have been the result. Though illegal, Psychedelics have been widely available for decades. Those results have failed to materialize.

Re: Microdosing with psilocybin mushrooms: a double-blind placebo-controlled study

#130
post #122

I'm sort of surprised they didn't extract/synthesize psilocybin directly and administer that. Decades ago, I grew a few batches of P. Cubensis. Even amongst mushrooms from the same rice cake, the dosage wildly varies. You could have a "trip" from a tiny mushroom or eat a handful of duds.

Same. Most psilocybin research I am familiar with synthesizes psilocybin, in part to be able to exactly control dosage, indeed. But it may also be to avoid dealing with illegal market?

I think this research was not done in the US but in another country (not sure which one?), not sure if research norms or availability or what differ there.

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