They Think It's Murder • Hacker News Board

Re: They Think It's Murder

#121

Post by hotpotamus » Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

LocalH wrote: post #89

hotpotamus wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, let's say a woman takes an abortion pill and then has a miscarriage. How will you determine that she should be prosecuted?

This is my concern. With abortion being a crime, the only way to determine whether a miscarriage happened in this fashion is to intrude into the woman's personal life, unless there is other clear and obvious evidence. This is where search history and other communication will be inspected.

Yeah, I think things are going to get weird here. Where I live, South Texas, I can actually get to a more abortion friendly country more quickly than I can get to an abortion friendly state now. I can also order drugs online paid for with cryptocurrency (which I actually do already because I take a DIY approach to medicine). But I doubt the pro-lifers will be happy with this situation and that frustration is going to find an outlet.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#122

Post by alexvoda » Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 5:04 PM UTC

thedailymail wrote: post #70

Jfjfnkdjdj wrote: post #8

Science thinks life begins at fertilization too. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.ht...

Looking through that collection of quotes, Ithink it would be more accurate to say "Science thinks development begins at fertilization." Which is true! Life is a polysemous concept - by many valid definitions the gametes are alive prior to fertilization. Whether the zygote represents an individual human life is a question that "Science" definitely does not hold a monolithic opinion on. From 20 years working in a fiel…

To throw a curveball, taking a cue from plants (1), a zygote is only a gametes way of making more gametes.

Human zygotes do reproduce asexuality resulting in twins.

(1) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternation_of_generations

Re: They Think It's Murder

#123

Post by daly » Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 5:04 PM UTC

Pass the following law:

If a person seeks to block an abortion they must agree to adopt and raise the child until age 18.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#124

Post by IncRnd » Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

maratc wrote: post #109

Aune wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly people who suffer a miscarriage when trying to have children suffer deeply. It is clear then that they lost more than some human tissue. Also if you beat a woman causing her to misscarry, then we look upon that quite a lot harsher than if no miscarriage occured. In general we don't tend to value human life or rights when it is inconvenient to do so though.

> Also if you beat a woman causing her to miscarry An interesting note: even in the Code of Hammurabi there's a provision for that, and that's from about 4,000 years ago.

Today I learned that there are actually six provisions in the Code of Hammurabi for that, covering different effects to the mother and (according that system) standing of the mother!

  209. If a man has struck a free woman with child, and has caused
       her to miscarry, he shall pay ten shekels for her miscarriage.
  210. If that woman die, his daughter shall be killed.
  211. If by a blow he has caused a plebian's daughter to have a
       miscarriage, he shall pay five shekels of silver.
  212. If that woman has died, he shall pay one-half mina of silver.
  213. If he struck a freeman's female slave and has caused her to
       have a miscarriage, he shall pay two shekels of silver.
  214. If that female slave has died, he shall pay one-third mina of
       silver.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#125

Post by daly » Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 5:09 PM UTC

daly wrote: post #123

Pass the following law: If a person seeks to block an abortion they must agree to adopt and raise the child until age 18.

Oh, and the blocking person must also pay all medical / hospital / incidental costs. Plus they must provide medical insurance.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#126

Post by sofixa » Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

kcplate wrote: post #119

gonzo41 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the meantime, whilst there's debate on legislation, women will die from ectopic pregnancies and other women's health issues that require the termination of a non viable pregnancy. It's very grim.

Yes, this is one of the new “talking point” but it literally assumes that entire medical teams are going to sit on their hands all across the country and let women die. Let me make my prediction right now that this will never happen.

It's already happened in Poland in basically the same situation (a miscarrying woman was left to die from sepsis because the doctors didn't want to risk being accused of aborting). Many doctors would prefer to not go to jail, even if it means risking a woman's life.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#127

Post by alexvoda » Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 5:11 PM UTC

jwie wrote: post #48

Dawkins is not a stupid man, yet he does not make arguments that the embryo isn't a human life in all his erudite prose. Who will he convince? Our early-modern ancestors, and even those only a few generations ago were more than aware that most babies did not survive. Whether miscarried, birthed still, or died in infancy. Our ancestors never imagined these things weren't deaths, and that those who cause them intention…

Did people of the time you mention or of the present, consider those who caused the intentional death of their own children through rejection of vaccination to be wicked?

I would guess antivaxxers both then and now would consider those deaths to be just deaths or the will of the supernatural or maybe even that it was the children who were wicked.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#128

Post by bryanrasmussen » Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #114

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in religions that believe in original sin and potentially heaven with life choices as well as conception being the moment of a soul's existence? Because that's the one we're actually dealing with.

Most people I talk to believe in an "age of accountability" and that babies do in fact go to heaven. That age? I'm unsure, it ranges up to about 13.

Ok well not sure as to the data, but this suggests that stillborn babies and miscarriages lead to children going to heaven https://thefederalist.com/2017/05/05/christians-believe-misc...

Re: They Think It's Murder

#129

Post by maratc » Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

IncRnd wrote: post #124

maratc wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also if you beat a woman causing her to miscarry An interesting note: even in the Code of Hammurabi there's a provision for that, and that's from about 4,000 years ago.

Today I learned that there are actually six provisions in the Code of Hammurabi for that, covering different effects to the mother and (according that system) standing of the mother! 209. If a man has struck a free woman with child, and has caused her to miscarry, he shall pay ten shekels for her miscarriage. 210. If that woman die, his daughter shall be killed. 211. If by a blow he has caused a plebian's daughter to…

This also shows how women at that time were treated as "glorified property":

> If that woman die, his daughter shall be killed.

You damaged my property — your property will be equally damaged. Justice!

Women wouldn't be treated as equal to men for another 3,500 years or so.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#130

Post by alexvoda » Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

chungy wrote: post #77

vehemenz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me guess. Piracy is theft?

Are you talking about the high seas or copyright infringement? Either way, it's irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Actually both.

Copyright infringement by definition is not theft.

And high seas piracy is an issue to be dealt with by the military, not law enforcement, especially if a letter of marque is involved. Same as pillaging by an invading army.