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For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

aeon.co

121–130 of 136 posts

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#121
post #114
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "never two different religions at the same time."

And "syncretic religions of incompatible elements" are neither of the original "two different religions" but a new third religion.

Ultimately it's 8 billion religions. It all breaks down when you look at what people believe at an individual level. It's possible that no two people believe the same thing, even if they claim to be adherents to the same sect. And if an individual's beliefs are at odds with their church, who am I to decide who's right, if I don't even share the beliefs of either?

For instance, the majority of American Catholics believe it's OK to use birth control. So, who represents "Catholicism," the people or the church fathers? It's just my nature to give benefit of the doubt to the people.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#122
post #115
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And "syncretic religions of incompatible elements" are neither of the original "two different religions" but a new third religion.

So you're splitting the concept between "religious syncretism" and "double belonging", and claiming that the latter [0] is impossible? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_religious_belonging

Please don't put your words in my mouth.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#123
post #97
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this context you seem to be expecting a rule of thumb to do quite a lot of lifting. You seem to imply that the universe is self-evident to all and is therefore “simpler” as something that has always existed. That’s what theists are claiming God is: already self-evident to all. Conflating God and the universe as interchangeable is addressed by the Contingency Argument: https://youtu.be/FPCzEP0oD7I

God is ascribed attributes the universe is not: omniscience and omnipotence. To a lesser extent one realizes those attributes of God also means God is conscious, which is not something we typically ascribe to the universe. I would argue since the universe lacks omniscience, omnipotence, consciousness, and by extension, will power it is a far simpler entity than God. So saying the universe has existed forever and sayi…

There’s issues with the idea of a universe existing forever, namely Kant’s First Antinomy: if the universe existed for an infinite time, then an infinite amount of events would have already taken place.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#124
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s the thing: the religious believe that everyone on Earth, in that they experience reality alone, have sufficient evidence that reality has a creator. That elements of reality may be indescribable or that individuals experience reality in a subjective way doesn’t affect that claim. Resigning truth and falsehood into a single category is a nonstarter. The conclusion here from HL Mencken’s quote is a fallacy calle…

That first sentence sounds too ontological to be useful. St Anselm made the same mistake - because he could imagine a perfect God, that perfection required God to exist. He (and countless other apologists) believed that the universe and its nature were subject to the requirements of their ideas of God, without accounting for the inevitable limitations and imperfections of those ideas.

The claim was “the world existing rather than not existing is proof of the existence of God”. Ideas about characteristics of God, limited and imperfect as they may be, were not cited.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#125
post #27

Two things to ask anybody who claims to have some information, or even just some personal beliefs, about something they call "God" : 1. What are the statements about what you call "God" that you believe in? 2. Why do you believe just that set of statements and not some other set of statements? I believe that the answer to 2., if they are honest, would most often be: They believe the set of statements they believe bec…

From your perspective a Christian has faith in God solely because they want to. This perspective is somewhat ironic because in many cases Christians believe that they have faith in God because God gifted them the faith; in other words, they have faith against their human/created/natural desire to be autonomous and suppress the knowledge of God.

> From your perspective a Christian has faith in God solely because they want to.

That is just my guess in most cases, but of course there can be many different reasons.

It is a bit ironic yes. I remember talking to Christians who told me it is basically a sin to NOT believe. So if you don't believe, it is not just that God didn't give you that gift of faith, but that you really have to force yourself to believe, or else you go to Hell. And you have to believe that it is not you who is forcing you to believe but it is God that makes you believe, if and when you do.

But my point was not really about whether to "believe" or not, but how does it come to be that you believe the very specific set of beliefs that you do, which I assume vary from person to person even within the same congregation.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#126

Two things to ask anybody who claims to have some information, or even just some personal beliefs, about something they call "God" : 1. What are the statements about what you call "God" that you believe in? 2. Why do you believe just that set of statements and not some other set of statements? I believe that the answer to 2., if they are honest, would most often be: They believe the set of statements they believe bec…

1. we are "computationally" equivalent to a turing machine: a tape with symbols on it and a head that reads and writes symbols to the tape according to rules. the natural generalization of a turing machine to infinity would be a hyper turing machine: an infinitely wide tape and infinitely many heads. i think language of "god" is mostly expressed in terms of infinities. e.g. pi (most infinite numbers are inexpressible…

No I don't believe any axioms and theorems should be infinitely long. If they were then there would not be enough time for us to understand them, or even read them through. Theorems which nobody can understand would not be useful for anything.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#127

Two things to ask anybody who claims to have some information, or even just some personal beliefs, about something they call "God" : 1. What are the statements about what you call "God" that you believe in? 2. Why do you believe just that set of statements and not some other set of statements? I believe that the answer to 2., if they are honest, would most often be: They believe the set of statements they believe bec…

Many, many people who've had near death experiences, e.g. Howard Storm, Dean Braxton, Randy Kay, Bryan Melvin, etc... do not believe simply because they want to believe: their entire operating system (heart, mind, soul) has been updated with the ineffable and there's no going back.

No doubt. My question is simply what exactly do they believe in and why? They had some wonderful experience, maybe they heard a voice saying "I am God thou shall not have other gods but me". Ok you had that experience but what can and what do you infer from it? That every word in the Bible is true? How would you draw that conclusion, based on the heavenly experience you had?

I think the point that many people refuse to question their "faith" is a clue which tells us that they believe because they want to believe, regardless of any factual basis.

I'm not against faith I believe everybody has the right to believe whatever they choose to believe. And if they do then obviously there are good reasons why they do so, my guess is the reason is it makes them feel better.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#128
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God is ascribed attributes the universe is not: omniscience and omnipotence. To a lesser extent one realizes those attributes of God also means God is conscious, which is not something we typically ascribe to the universe. I would argue since the universe lacks omniscience, omnipotence, consciousness, and by extension, will power it is a far simpler entity than God. So saying the universe has existed forever and sayi…

> God is ascribed attributes the universe is not: omniscience and omnipotence. Ain't really sure whence you'd get that impression. It's hard to exist without the universe being aware of it and causing it to be, both in the sense of the universe having been in a state enabling your existence and in the sense of your existence having effects on the universe (and thus producing new states enabling other existences). God…

I don't subscribe to metaphysical BS and I don't subscribe to quantum voodoo. The universe can exist just fine without any awareness of its existence.

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#129
post #123
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God is ascribed attributes the universe is not: omniscience and omnipotence. To a lesser extent one realizes those attributes of God also means God is conscious, which is not something we typically ascribe to the universe. I would argue since the universe lacks omniscience, omnipotence, consciousness, and by extension, will power it is a far simpler entity than God. So saying the universe has existed forever and sayi…

There’s issues with the idea of a universe existing forever, namely Kant’s First Antinomy: if the universe existed for an infinite time, then an infinite amount of events would have already taken place.

That's why I think Penrose may be on to something by saying the universe "forgets" how to tell time between different "epochs", where each "epoch" appears to have begun with a time zero corresponding with a big bang. If the universe "forgets" how to tell time between those "epochs" then those epochs are causally separated and you sidestep the infinite amount of events. The interesting bit is what evidence would reveal that to be the case?

Re: For natural theologians, proving God was beside the point

#130

The article was quite difficult to read, the point was often lost in historical recaps and relationships between historical figures. The central premise is wrong, natural theology was dicussed by hume and paley, but neither of their arguments disprove it. Arguments about 'proving' god using end up being arguments about what 'kind' of evidence qualifies as proof, which is not explored here. Paley's infinite regression…

I think it was difficult for you to read because you aren't viewing it from the required context. It made perfect sense to me, I was enraptured and thought it was written beautifully. But I also have the requisite beliefs to address the subject matter - sorta like trying to grok algebra without understanding division or multiplication. >The central premise is wrong, natural theology was dicussed by hume and paley, bu…

I'll admit I'm still confused by the author's intent and that could be my error for all I know.

>Right, because the piece was written to show the differing definitions of "proof" - how do you prove something immaterial using a material context? You can't, because that'd be attempting to connect two disconnected fields. It's like using math to define a word in the dictionary. The argument between spiritual and atheist people was never "does god exist", but rather "what is god's will (in relation to this phenomenon) / what is the scientific nature of this phenomenon", which is two ways of saying the same thing.

I think all the arguments to pull a scientific atheist from their scientific atheism depend on immaterial factors as being unable to be parsed in science. Going as broad as possible in the question about what kinds of evidence one could obtain to be proof of God has to come before the other questions. Most recently those arguments have taken shape in the form of categorical arguments, like where does consciousness, love or human character come from?

There's a weird rabbit hole appeared in our world where science has tried to eat up metaphysics as the ultimate explanation of the natural world. Science can never succeed at that task, but people are happy to live like Sisyphus it appears. Always trying to reduce the visions that are expressed through metaphysics down to scientific rationalism, but being unable to finally pull the light-bulb from the socket, so to speak.

>the difference between seeing a rock by the side of the road and a watch is that with a rock you wouldn't presume any ultimate purpose, because it's just a rock

The act of the scientific rational atheist of "not presuming" is the same act of J.E. Schellenberg's non-resisting, non-believing atheist. Taking the lesser "ontological cost" in assuming only the world exists and nothing more than that. The argument I make is that God cannot be ruled out in this fashion because the scientific atheist cannot rule out that the Rock has a purpose. I don't have a better argument than that, it's a very difficult argument to overcome in my eyes. I don't know ultimately why someone would be compelled to believing in God's existence, but plenty of arguments that inspire a longing to believe are an easier sell, as logically unsatisfying as it is.

>Then give the author credit and take it as a fun burst of levity, and not as a serious theological argument.

I like the argument, it is fun! But I don't think it was presented in that manner, and again I could be wrong, it just appeared to be support for the author's supposed intention rather than comedic relief.

>That sounds good to me, but how do you distill it? I think nearly as much effort would be required in administrating and preparing the presentation of the conversation as would be in actually making them. And making arguments is the fun part.

The Christian scholastic argument always depends on a two-step dialogue and that could be mapped as threads of support For or Against a specific topic, with the Topic usually encapsulated in a single word, logged as written arguments from authors across time. Like a gant chart filled with popular word topics that are each their own timeline of For/Against arguments.

The discussion about said topics need not be more complicated than a hacker-news clone.

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