Racism in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Racism in Tech

#121

Post by joebadmo » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 7:44 PM UTC

jimbobimbo wrote: post #120

joebadmo wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This entire issue is crap. ...some BS issue that has no value. My only advice to "black" and other entrepreneurs is shut up, go code and make something awesome. This entire issue is being exploited to get attention for Angela Benton and her new accelerator. It's easy to tout self-reliance when you're a white male. It's easy to overlook all the tiny advantages you get that accumulate in an invisible, insidious way. It…

"It's easy to tout self-reliance when you're a white male." "This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer..."

First sentence was in reply to ellyagg, who touted self-reliance, and self-identified as white male.

My selective quoting was in response to ellyagg's position that I was not accurately representing d3x's original comment in my original reply.

If the conversation is hard to follow, then you should read more carefully.

Re: Racism in Tech

#122

Post by Retric » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 7:51 PM UTC

ww wrote: post #30

d3x wrote: post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

The racism that I've come in contact with (in corporate settings at least) is towards people from India. Not people born here and of Indian descent, but people from India with Indian culture. It would probably be better to call it "culturism" or bias against a culture instead of racism. When you go on a contract and you see 20 employees 50-80% of them being from India and 0% of them in management or even team lead po…

I work at a large 20+K consulting firm and there is exactly one Indian on my current project, the female Indian project manager. None on the one before that, and before that one the project manager. It's a diverse world out there and while people blame persistent racism my first boss was a black man with a degree from standard and there is simple not a lot of people in that category. Not just for economic reasons but also because your talking about a smaller overall population.

There are many funnels in immigration and education but talking about them like they shape people is missing the point. It's a selection process and the kind of people that can jump though the right hoops are the people that make it to the other side. In 20 years you will see plenty of Indian middle management but you can expect to see yet another round of 'glass sealing' debate not because people can't get their but because so few parents knew how to set that trajectory in motion.

Re: Racism in Tech

#123

Post by endtime » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 7:59 PM UTC

JabavuAdams wrote: post #103

bdunbar wrote: post #53

Over the course of the three days, the customer made endless racial and ethnic slurs directed at B. Customer is a 'government owned military installation'. What branch? What site? Was the customer military or civilian contractor? The military is [1] _death_ on racisim, sexism, favoritism. Just does not happen. When it does it gets squashed. While the military one thing, the individual service members are another. It'…

> The military is [1] _death_ on racisim, sexism, favoritism Officially, yes, but that's probably BS. This reminds me of two anecdotes about the IDF (not to make this about Israel -- it's just the data that I have): 1) One friend assured me that any soldier acting improperly would be disciplined immediately, as the IDF had very high standards, etc. etc. 2) Another friend used to tell me stories about his IDF stint an…

The IDF, which has strengths and weaknesses, is not the US military. The main relevant difference here is that the IDF is composed of every 18 year old in the country (pretty much), whereas the US military is only composed of those who want to be in the military. The kind of kids who will get high on guard duty in Israel won't ever join the military in the US.

Re: Racism in Tech

#124

Post by JabavuAdams » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 8:13 PM UTC

endtime wrote: post #123

JabavuAdams wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The military is [1] _death_ on racisim, sexism, favoritism Officially, yes, but that's probably BS. This reminds me of two anecdotes about the IDF (not to make this about Israel -- it's just the data that I have): 1) One friend assured me that any soldier acting improperly would be disciplined immediately, as the IDF had very high standards, etc. etc. 2) Another friend used to tell me stories about his IDF stint an…

The IDF, which has strengths and weaknesses, is not the US military. The main relevant difference here is that the IDF is composed of every 18 year old in the country (pretty much), whereas the US military is only composed of those who want to be in the military. The kind of kids who will get high on guard duty in Israel won't ever join the military in the US.

Interesting point, but not really relevant to my argument.

What's most interesting about these IDF anecdotes is that you have one ex-soldier completely dismissing behaviour that another ex-soldier admits to. That pattern can generalize to any org, regardless of volunteer / non-volunteer selection. I.e. they can't both be right. One of them is over-generalizing.

EDIT>

I.e. saying "No one in org X is doing Y" is much less likely (given an individual's limited personal experience) than saying "someone in org X is probably doing Y".

Re: Racism in Tech

#125

Post by ataggart » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 8:17 PM UTC

It's not clear to me how one distinguishes being treated differently because they are a minority, from being treated differently because they are an incompetent ass. And nothing stops the latter from being used as an anecdote in support of claimed racism.

Re: Racism in Tech

#126

Post by michaelchisari » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 8:31 PM UTC

Jun8 wrote: post #117

kenjackson wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is for this to work at scale you really need to make programming/entrepreneurship desirable for your African Americans. This is easy for sports and entertainment, because the stars are so visible. But who knows who Peter Thiel is outside of a very small niche. Vinod Khosla? And this is why I think the black incubators make sense. You can bring the idea of an incubator into the inner city and recruit young…

You are right. However, not knowing successful entrepreneurs (while being able to name 20 different rappers) is not unique to black high schoolers, so it's up to the mentor to create motivation and make these stories known, e.g. take them to the Social Network movie and explain that that guy in the hoodie is now worth billions , much more than Jay Z. I don't know about the misguided part, but it's definitely not easi…

take them to the Social Network movie and explain that that guy in the hoodie is now worth billions, much more than Jay Z.

A white, upper-middle class student at an Ivy League, versus a black guy with a single mom from the Bed-Stuy housing projects. I don't think it's a very good comparison.

And I say this as a white guy with a working middle class upbringing who works on social networking software, and I still have a real hard time identifying with Zuckerburg.

Re: Racism in Tech

#127

Post by kiiski » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 8:32 PM UTC

rdl wrote: post #108

irahul wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I needed to spell my first name (David) out to them using the NATO phonetic alphabet. Did you just say "Delta Alpha..." or "D as in Delta, A as in Alpha"? I can assure you the first one would confuse the hell out of most of the Indians(I am an Indian living in India). Some of the NATO phonetic alphabets would complicate matters even further - Quebec, Zulu, Yankee. Zulu is a special one, considering Z isn't pronounc…

Anyone not understanding NATO phonetic alphabet has no business working in a call center (or using a telephone, in general), even if English is not his or her native language.

Why not? I think you overestimate how common NATO phonetic alphabet is. I, for example, don't know it and I still can use a telephone without problems. (I'm Finnish)

Re: Racism in Tech

#128

Post by freemarketteddy » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 8:33 PM UTC

ww wrote: post #30

d3x wrote: post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

The racism that I've come in contact with (in corporate settings at least) is towards people from India. Not people born here and of Indian descent, but people from India with Indian culture. It would probably be better to call it "culturism" or bias against a culture instead of racism. When you go on a contract and you see 20 employees 50-80% of them being from India and 0% of them in management or even team lead po…

Well I think you're right...but this "culturism" that you talk about has something to do with the fact that Indians from India are not inherently very good at managing people or software projects.In fact I would say that statistically Indians who have been educated in India are not good managers period.

I am myself an Indian and I have a bachelors degree from an Indian University.

In my experience working for corporate america,one of the things that irritates me most about Indian managers is that they will talk completely from their asses.They wont write a line of code and yet will make very heavy technical decisions and then when I disagree they will resort to micro-managing me instead of making an effort to understand my arguments.

I have repeatedly asked them to actually read the source and understand what I am talking about but they will relegate it back to me and ask me to send an email with a lengthy explanation later(They know I am not going to do that).

I have repeatedly pushed for DVCS adoption but apparently IBM Clearcase is a much better solution than github firewall.None of them (my Indian manager and his Indian manager and his Indian manager) have actually made an effort to understand DVCS till date.

Sometimes my manager has actually tried to argue that just because he has 13 years of experience in software he obviously knows more than me about iOS development and therefore his decision is obviously the right one.(The fact that he has never really written a line of Objective C is completely irrelevant.)

In fact when I apply for new jobs I try to make sure that I am not assigned to an Indian manager.

Re: Racism in Tech

#129

Post by endtime » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 8:37 PM UTC

JabavuAdams wrote: post #124

endtime wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The IDF, which has strengths and weaknesses, is not the US military. The main relevant difference here is that the IDF is composed of every 18 year old in the country (pretty much), whereas the US military is only composed of those who want to be in the military. The kind of kids who will get high on guard duty in Israel won't ever join the military in the US.

Interesting point, but not really relevant to my argument. What's most interesting about these IDF anecdotes is that you have one ex-soldier completely dismissing behaviour that another ex-soldier admits to. That pattern can generalize to any org, regardless of volunteer / non-volunteer selection. I.e. they can't both be right. One of them is over-generalizing. EDIT> I.e. saying "No one in org X is doing Y" is much l…

The OP said "Org X has property P." You responded with "Org Y does not have property P, and Org Y is like Org X." I claim the second half of that - that things that are true about the IDF are likely to be true about the US military - cannot be assumed. Even ignoring the significant cultural differences between the two countries, there are differences in the demographics the militaries themselves are composed of.

Re: Racism in Tech

#130

Post by redthrowaway » Tue, Nov 01, 2011, 8:41 PM UTC

ww wrote: post #30

d3x wrote: post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

The racism that I've come in contact with (in corporate settings at least) is towards people from India. Not people born here and of Indian descent, but people from India with Indian culture. It would probably be better to call it "culturism" or bias against a culture instead of racism. When you go on a contract and you see 20 employees 50-80% of them being from India and 0% of them in management or even team lead po…

I guess it depends on the company. I'm doing a co-op at Ericsson right now and my manager's Arab, my team lead is Indian, and my supervisor's a Chinese woman. The male/female ratio is probably 80:20 and the racial breakdown is something like 50% ethnic Chinese (1st/2nd gen), 30% Indian, and 20% white. All of these numbers are fairly representative of the makeup of the tech industry in Vancouver, so I can't say I've seen any prejudice or favoritism here.