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EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

europarl.europa.eu

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Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#121

Post by Bayart »

tomp wrote: post #97
ATsch wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are already effectively outlawed in most of the EU. E.g. in Germany, you must be paid at least 50% of your current salary while the clause is active, for a maximum of two years and "unreasonably broad" clauses are invalid.

If by “effectively outlawed” you mean “not effectively outlawed at all”, then yes, sure. How many people can survive for 2 years on 50% lower salary? In addition, the biggest impediment of non-competes is actually the inflexibility (“your job offer sounds amazing, I’ll start working in 18-24 months!”).

The assumption is that a job that would incentivize non-competes would be so well paid that 50% would still be comfortable, isn't it ?

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#122

Post by Double_a_92 »

trabant00 wrote: post #49

I find myself at the other end of the equal pay problem - I am equally payed with equally titled but not equally working coworkers. The entire management chain has clearly different expectations from me: I get most if not all of the difficult tasks and my coworkers rely daily on my guidance. In this quarter discussion with my manager I've been told I can not get a pay raise as it would create a discrepancy with my co…

> So I guess my question is how do they plan to measure the work part of "equal pay for equal work"?

I do hope that the new laws don't directly require that, but that that would just be a positive consequence of having public salary statistics for each company.

I.e. people would automatically start demanding equal pay if they roughly knew how much other people in that company earn. Especially for insecure or less agressive people (e.g. women, fresh graduates, foreigners, shy people,..) knowing exactly what a fair salary is, would give them more leverage / confidence during salary negotiations.

And all that happens automatically, without the government needing to dictate any specific salary requirements.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#123

Post by HPsquared »

londons_explore wrote: post #114
jakey_bakey wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is weird because it's such an easy question to answer. "Performance management isn't an exact science and if everyone knew everyone else's pay, it would be total chaos and nothing would get done."

If everyone knew everyone else's pay, we'd end up paying everyone more money, since those overpaid will complain, and those underpaid will shut up. Such a system will encourage rigid pay schedules (ie. all engineers with 5 years experience get X, non-negotiable). Rigid pay like that advantages poor performers, and good people leave. The end result is a company giving pay transparency ends up either with a much bigger…

The workaround is to formally give good performers a different job title with accompanying higher pay.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#124

Post by jsmcgd »

mustyoshi wrote: post #16
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

How does making salary public and not asking about applicants pay history work? If you tell them your title and employer, can't they just look up what you probably got paid?

I wonder if this will be one of the unintended (intended?) consequences? Normally the best way to get a pay increase is to apply for jobs that pay a lot more. Previously you could apply for a job that paid much more than your current role. Your new employer might assume that you were on something similar or a little bit less. Now employers will be able to see what you were paid previously and will probably not offer much of a pay increase, or you'll have to have a really good reason why you think your salary should be doubled.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#125

Post by runnerup »

tibbetts wrote: post #100
mustyoshi wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does making salary public and not asking about applicants pay history work? If you tell them your title and employer, can't they just look up what you probably got paid?

Large employers already subscribe to services which tell them what you likely got paid at your last job by geo/title/seniority/tenure.

And sometimes exactly what you got paid. Actual data from your own paystubs is often for sale as well.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#126

Post by gpderetta »

londons_explore wrote: post #114
jakey_bakey wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is weird because it's such an easy question to answer. "Performance management isn't an exact science and if everyone knew everyone else's pay, it would be total chaos and nothing would get done."

If everyone knew everyone else's pay, we'd end up paying everyone more money, since those overpaid will complain, and those underpaid will shut up. Such a system will encourage rigid pay schedules (ie. all engineers with 5 years experience get X, non-negotiable). Rigid pay like that advantages poor performers, and good people leave. The end result is a company giving pay transparency ends up either with a much bigger…

Information asymmetry favors those that have the info. That would be your employer not you.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#127

Post by marsRoverDev »

tialaramex wrote: post #18
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

> Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history Aw, that was one of the fun moments when getting my current job. I moved from private sector to public sector and they're like "You understand that the previous pay you listed is more than our boss's boss, the director of our entire org unit gets paid right?". Yes, yes I do. Which is why when you asked at interview "Why do you want this role…

The problem at least in France is that prospective employers will demand your pay slips from your previous job. If you are early in your career, they will use this to depress your wages as much as possible, making arguments like "well, we can't just give you a 40% uplift". So if your first employer screws you, the ones that follow can as well.

Personally, I would just forge one with a much higher pay level - but most people who play by the rules get screwed royally.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#128

Post by ATsch »

tomp wrote: post #97
ATsch wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are already effectively outlawed in most of the EU. E.g. in Germany, you must be paid at least 50% of your current salary while the clause is active, for a maximum of two years and "unreasonably broad" clauses are invalid.

If by “effectively outlawed” you mean “not effectively outlawed at all”, then yes, sure. How many people can survive for 2 years on 50% lower salary? In addition, the biggest impediment of non-competes is actually the inflexibility (“your job offer sounds amazing, I’ll start working in 18-24 months!”).

In practice these restrictions are big enough that non-competes are pretty rare except for key personnel with trade secrets and that the restrictions are reasonably narrow. I don't think I know anyone who has signed one. Of course it's still not great for those few people, but they're usually doing well enough as is.

EDIT: I did some googling around and almost every resource referencing them talks about C-level executives and senior managers. So that should give you a rough idea of their prevalence.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#129

Post by skummetmaelk »

andai wrote: post #96

My admittedly limited understanding of the gender pay gap is that it is based on gender differences in interests (eg. career-wise), differences in willingness to work long hours (especially with age), and differences in temperament, ie. women on the whole having lower assertiveness and thus being less likely to ask for higher salaries and raises. The "equal work" part takes care of the first two points, ie. the type…

> To emphasize the importance of negotiation: several friends of mine told me their bosses said they could have started with nearly double their starting salaries if they had negotiated better, so this aspect makes a huge difference, at least in engineering.

Which clearly means that equal work doesn't pay equally. Surely your colleagues did not do half the work of those who negotiated a higher starting salary? In fact, mandating equal pay for equal work would take care of the negotiation aspect. The tricky part of course is how to measure work accurately.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#130

Post by marsRoverDev »

hughrr wrote: post #63
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

I rather liked it when employers asked about pay history because I used to lie about it. I managed to double my salary in two job jumps!

Lots of French employers will ask for multiple months of pay slips so they can screw you in pay negotiations.
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