Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#121

Post by 0x138d5 » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:05 PM UTC

ihattendorf wrote: post #120

KingOfCoders wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if it is a myth, but hadn't we forgotten to build Saturn V engines?

IIRC we have (at least most of) the drawings, but they don't specify tolerances like modern drawings do and were more for reference as parts were developed at specific factories with existing molds. It's more the fabrication knowledge that would need to be rebuilt.

In addition to that, a lot of stuff was crafted by hand with little or no documentation as to what was changed (no 'as-builts').

e: How NASA brought the monstrous F-1 “moon rocket” engine back to life (https://arstechnica.com/science/2013/04/how-nasa-brought-the...)

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#122

Post by wpietri » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #77

bobthechef wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An example closer to home, though perhaps not as stark, is the loss of expertise in various industries that have been outsourced. The US is a good example. This is one (of many) arguments against outsourcing your industry just because it's cheaper and increases the profits of the outsourcing company. The tradition and culture that allows a certain industry to flourish is interrupted and destroyed and rebuilding that…

Yup, this is a massive strategic blunder of historical scale. While the US and western countries are asleep at the switch and think that they are exploiting cheap Chinese labor, the Chinese have a 100- and 500- year plan and are exploiting our myopia for short-term profits to gain manufacturing expertise and military advantage. It may not be too late to reverse, but it is close. It is really the result of not thinkin…

An important factor here is not so much the business lobbies, but how we reward the decision-makers. CEOs make most of their money from short-term stock price numbers, something that also determines how long they last in their jobs. Combine that with declining CEO tenure [1] and the incentives are really clear: Do anything that will make the numbers look good in the 1-5 year time frame, get maximum money, and GTFO.

A lot of these problems would go away if CEOs were paid a modest amount of cash to live (say, $1m/year) and then the rest of their compensation was in stock that was locked up for at least 20 years.

[1] https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/news-room/press-releases/2019/ceo-...

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#123

Post by aeonflux » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

buildsjets wrote: post #76

WJW wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy" is the text I see referenced most often in this context. On the pdf at [1], from page 24 onwards it describes the procedure to create a flat surface accurate to single digit micrometers "from scratch" with nothing but a scraping tool and some dye (and a whole lot of patience). [1] https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/15_Mfrs_Publications/M...

Thank you for posting that, you beat me to it. FOMA is a classic. Here’s a video illustrating the process of creating a microscopically flat surface from three unflat surfaces. It can be done with ancient technology, if you have enough time. https://youtu.be/5m_Opf3nhQU

Haven't watched yet, but I always wonder, what would be their reason to do so? I assume it takes huge amount of time and effort. They would get pretty similar effect by stopping much earlier. No need to polish two stone to death, just to fit one onto another. Whats even weirder, many times they seem to care much more about the connecting sides, not the eye-facing one. I don't buy the slavery-argument. Even with access to "free labor" there is no point in over-expending the time and effort.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#124

Post by feurio » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

Robotbeat wrote: post #111

ben_w wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I sometimes wonder is: if there was a dinosaur species which had reached roughly our level of intelligence and society, would they have left enough of a mark on the world that we could even tell? If they got further than us, tried to capture an asteroid and mine it, could they have wiped themselves out without leaving behind technosignatures that would still be visible?

Humans left a ridiculous amount of stone tools which last basically indefinitely in the fossil record (and unlike bone fossils, don't require super special conditions to preserve them). So I think we'd have enough evidence from modern artifacts made of similar types of materials. A car buried under sediment would rust all out, but you'd be left with a big car-shaped bunch of rust as well as chunks of pure metal which…

Maybe the archaeologists of the future would weave scholarly narratives as to how these ferrous-based lifeforms lived, what their diet was and how they came to perish.

Film-makers would use stop-motion techniques to depict battles between Fordusprefectops and Chevroletcamaro-Rex whilst their own early ancestors look on, clad in loincloths and bras made from footwell mats.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#125

Post by PeterisP » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #98

marcus_holmes wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan has very low quality iron ores. Yet they turned out (arguably) the best steel swords in the world. Constraints don't always lead to bad outcomes.

There's a difference between "we have to do more refining to get usable metal" and "there's literally none around unless you go deep underground into a new deposit".

The buried and overgrown remains of any modern junkyard, port, railway depot or rubbish dump would be a decent shallow ore for many metals. During the industrial revolution we have consumed almost all of the shallow fuels, but we haven't consumed any metals, they're right here on the surface and more accessible than before - it's just that they're currently tied up in some products or structures we use.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#126

Post by naikrovek » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #99

naikrovek wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

very little from the past survives through to today. I don't think there is any record of this device existing other than the device itself, and mention of it after its discovery in the early 1900s. to some that will be proof that it is not truly an ancient device, and I think that is hogwash. most things just don't last that long, especially paper, which is where mention of the device would be found, if it ever is f…

I don’t doubt it’s ancient. I’m not skeptic from that POV. I do find it curious that such an object would be exist but not have some fanfare around it. I’m sure there’s an explanation that eludes me. Could have been developed in some secrecy for example because it have the people who used it some advantage?

or maybe it was just a fairly common thing, then?

the math used in the device is not complex, nor is its construction. it is only impressive to us because of what we assume about cultures of that time: that they are dumber than we are, less intelligent.

they were just as smart as us, but they were far fewer in number, and had many more limitations than we have when it comes to the library of technologies and skills they can call on to accomplish their goals.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#127

Post by randmeerkat » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

Robotbeat wrote: post #83

ceejayoz wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Being stuck at that point would be the problem.

Would it? Most new smelting plants today in the US (any built in the last few decades) use a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide as the reducing gases (natural gas primarily as feedstock, but no reason it couldn’t be about 90% hydrogen produced via, say, hydroelectricity or wind). Coal didn’t overtake charcoal for smelting iron in the US until the latter half of the 19th century, well after the first industrial r…

Or instead of stone tablets you could simply build a 10,000 year clock.

https://www.businessinsider.com/everything-you-need-to-know-...

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#128

Post by qwertyuiop_ » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

rozab wrote: post #11

Jonathan Blow's talk 'Preventing the Collapse of Civilization' goes into detail about how technology can regress, with the Mechanism being one example. This kind of thing is far more common than we think, most would be surprised to learn that Ancient Greece had writing for about 600 years before forgetting it. There was no writing in Greece for over 400 years, until they adopted the Phoenician alphabet around 730 BC.…

Technology can regress by idiotic initiatives like banning advanced math

https://reason.com/2021/05/04/california-math-framework-woke...

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#129

Post by justinzollars » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

rozab wrote: post #11

Jonathan Blow's talk 'Preventing the Collapse of Civilization' goes into detail about how technology can regress, with the Mechanism being one example. This kind of thing is far more common than we think, most would be surprised to learn that Ancient Greece had writing for about 600 years before forgetting it. There was no writing in Greece for over 400 years, until they adopted the Phoenician alphabet around 730 BC.…

Thank you for this talk, this is fantastic

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#130

Post by WJW » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

aeonflux wrote: post #123

buildsjets wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for posting that, you beat me to it. FOMA is a classic. Here’s a video illustrating the process of creating a microscopically flat surface from three unflat surfaces. It can be done with ancient technology, if you have enough time. https://youtu.be/5m_Opf3nhQU

Haven't watched yet, but I always wonder, what would be their reason to do so? I assume it takes huge amount of time and effort. They would get pretty similar effect by stopping much earlier. No need to polish two stone to death, just to fit one onto another. Whats even weirder, many times they seem to care much more about the connecting sides, not the eye-facing one. I don't buy the slavery-argument. Even with acces…

They wouldn't grind down the stones to micrometer flatness for construction work, just a mm or so.

The type of buildings where you see extremely precise stonework tend to be cathedrals and palaces, where spending insane amounts of labor is kinda the point. It demonstrates to the masses how grand, rich and powerful the inhabitant of the building is. Spending lots of money on a building is a way of showing off.