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RIP Higgs Boson (with 95% confidence)

blogs.scientificamerican.com

121–130 of 153 posts

Re: RIP Higgs Boson (with 95% confidence)

#121

I'm a particle physics grad student. My god, what utter nonsense. The only reasonably accurate paragraph is this: "And, more importantly, the lower energy range from 114 to just under 145 billion electron volts, a region of energy that Fermilab has determined, through earlier experiments, may harbor the Higgs, has not been ruled out. But the Higgs is quickly running out of places to hide." The region of higher Higgs…

> On the other hand, not finding the Higgs would be an extremely exciting result, since it would open the way to less well-explored ideas about the origin of mass. The goal of the LHC is to teach us about the world, not stroke physicists' egos and tell us how clever our existing theories are.

Maybe the Higgs boson is the new aether[1] which, after many experiments failing at observing its existence, was replaced by relativity and quantum physics. By which I concur that an experiment built for, yet failing to demonstrate a point is not necessarily a failed experiment.

So whatever the results of the LHC, I'm confident that it's a worthwhile task to undertake.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminiferous_aether

Re: RIP Higgs Boson (with 95% confidence)

#122
post #89

I'm a particle physics grad student. My god, what utter nonsense. The only reasonably accurate paragraph is this: "And, more importantly, the lower energy range from 114 to just under 145 billion electron volts, a region of energy that Fermilab has determined, through earlier experiments, may harbor the Higgs, has not been ruled out. But the Higgs is quickly running out of places to hide." The region of higher Higgs…

I am reminded of an observation made by my former boss, a planetary scientist at NASA, about that same statistical effect: When a new Earth-crossing asteroid or comet is discovered, it's orbit is rarely known with any great certainty. The cross sectional area of the Earth divided by the area of space the object might possibly pass through yields the chance of a collision. With each successive night of observation, th…

"It's truly sad, and perhaps even criminal that journalists, and especially science journalists fall victim to those same misconceptions."

"Journalists"? You are being moderated in your high praise of 'journalists', that is, professional members of the highly professional journalistic profession?

Cruel. SO cruel. How can you be so CRUEL?

I mean, while we're discussing particle physics, don't you believe that the English, drama, theater, and communications majors also need to eat?

And it's even worse, you are being even more cruel: You are suggesting that the journalistic profession should pay attention to technical information and, thus, push out the main technique of journalism back over 100 years: Use communications of human experience and emotion to grab people by the heart, the gut, and below the belt.

So CRUEL!

Re: RIP Higgs Boson (with 95% confidence)

#123
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Budgets tend to be somewhat compartmentalized. If a project in compartment X goes over its budget, that tends to come at the expense of other things in compartment X. $8 billion was a huge amount in the science compartment. It is completely irrelevant that some other compartments might have had much bigger budgets.

It's completely relevant if your point is that we nickel-and-dime essential scientific funding but spare no expense when killing brown people across the globe. You don't have to go to too much effort to understand that's what the grandparent was driving at.

Your definition of 'essential' and my definition of essential are vastly different, and we are both very interested in science. Imagine the difference between your definition and most Americans who wind up paying for the thing. I personally would rather see the $8 billion go to medical research or energy research with a closer time horizon than physics research.

Re: RIP Higgs Boson (with 95% confidence)

#124

I'm a particle physics grad student. My god, what utter nonsense. The only reasonably accurate paragraph is this: "And, more importantly, the lower energy range from 114 to just under 145 billion electron volts, a region of energy that Fermilab has determined, through earlier experiments, may harbor the Higgs, has not been ruled out. But the Higgs is quickly running out of places to hide." The region of higher Higgs…

I'm not sure I follow your first argument. The probability of finding the item in the remaining 5% of the search space is independent of the time required to search different sections of the search space (unless of course you have additional prior information about where the item is more likely to be located). The fact that it may take you, say, 90% of the time to search a particular 10% section of a search space doe…

The difference is that physicists have a good idea of where the Higgs should be, and the search isn't quite intuitive. They don't just have to find a single particle, they have to look at a large collection of events and perform statistical analysis. Also, the time it takes to search for lower energy particles may not be the same as for high energy particles.

Re: RIP Higgs Boson (with 95% confidence)

#125
post #51
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Are you aware that we might not have had the Internet if it wasn't for government funded research? How much has your quality of life improved as a result of this?" Might also be a good time to point out that the Internet did not fulfill it's intended goals either -- a communications network resistant to withstanding the loss of huge chunks of it's infrastructure most likely caused by large scale nuclear bombardment…

Maybe you should stop using the Internet, since it seems to have failed, in your opinion.

Normally I don't feed trolls, but I think the point still has to be made. Just because something didn't succeed in it's initial intent doesn't mean it was valueless. Quite often, the secondary use of the thing is far more valuable.

Re: RIP Higgs Boson (with 95% confidence)

#126
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has all blue sky research in history resulted in massive benefits decades down the line? That's the wrong question. "Has blue sky research in history resulted in massive benefits decades down the line?" is a better one and the answer is a most definitive yes, many many many times the amount of money put into it, on the order of trillions of dollars. Do each and every blue sky pure R&D experiment yield such results? H…

> That's the wrong question. I asked the question I meant to ask. The point is not that we should stop doing blue sky research if examples exist where it has produced no benefit. It is quite obvious that blue sky research has been useful to us over the course of time. That fact does not give anything called blue sky research carte blanche to spend taxpayer money. The point is to weigh the likely benefits of all the v…

all blue sky research, by definition, is likely to be a money sink then by that purposely obtuse set of requirements.

Ask any lab director what the risk level (of failure) of pure R&D is and they'll happily respond "very high". Pure R&D is such a high gamble that its virtually not commercially viable. And history shows that successful research often does not immediately benefit the organization that conducted the research.

But nearly everything you interact with on a daily basis was blue sky research at some point. The electricity you use, the car you drive, the networks you communicate on, the rf technology that underpins that, the processors that control your devices, the components that make up a modern microprocessor, the storage and memory technologies in your electronic devices, probably much of the food you eat, the products you clean yourself with, nearly all of the medicine you might take and pretty much any modern medical techniques you may benefit from, the water you drink, the plumbing and sewage systems you use and on and on and on and on.

Unless you live in a purposely technologieless enclave (and even those groups benefit from time-to-time from pure R&D), you personally benefit in uncountable ways from the research that was the result of what many people thought was pouring money down a hole.

But your point That fact does not give anything called blue sky research carte blanche to spend taxpayer money.

Is also absolutely true. That's why its important to put knowledgeable people in the decision making process to pull the trigger on something like this and we don't end up burning money on perpetual motion machines or faith healers.

Re: RIP Higgs Boson (with 95% confidence)

#127
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously quibbling about $8bn when we happily spend $3500bn on bank bailouts, or $500bn/year for the military (not including the various wars)?

Budgets tend to be somewhat compartmentalized. If a project in compartment X goes over its budget, that tends to come at the expense of other things in compartment X. $8 billion was a huge amount in the science compartment. It is completely irrelevant that some other compartments might have had much bigger budgets.

It is completely irrelevant that some other compartments might have had much bigger budgets.

While you may consider this point unrealistic or unhelpful to the argument, it cannot be characterised as irrelevant. Adding the word 'completely' only weakens your case.

Re: RIP Higgs Boson (with 95% confidence)

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's completely relevant if your point is that we nickel-and-dime essential scientific funding but spare no expense when killing brown people across the globe. You don't have to go to too much effort to understand that's what the grandparent was driving at.

Your definition of 'essential' and my definition of essential are vastly different, and we are both very interested in science. Imagine the difference between your definition and most Americans who wind up paying for the thing. I personally would rather see the $8 billion go to medical research or energy research with a closer time horizon than physics research.

But current energy research would be much slower or impossible had it not been for previous long time horizon physics research.

Re: RIP Higgs Boson (with 95% confidence)

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your definition of 'essential' and my definition of essential are vastly different, and we are both very interested in science. Imagine the difference between your definition and most Americans who wind up paying for the thing. I personally would rather see the $8 billion go to medical research or energy research with a closer time horizon than physics research.

But current energy research would be much slower or impossible had it not been for previous long time horizon physics research.

Agreed. I'd like to see the energy industry fumble around with maps trying to locate oil deposits because this new fangled GPS-thing doesn't quite work right.

Re: RIP Higgs Boson (with 95% confidence)

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it would be nice to know where mass comes from, but that fact absent any useful application (or a probability of a useful application) is of limited value to me. I guess if you don't see potential applications of understanding where mass comes from, we're at a bit of an impasse here. It is difficult (if not impossible) to make predictions about what the discovery will bring, but the mere possibility that…

> . . . we're at a bit of an impasse here. Only because I don't know the science behind it. I asked the question to be informed. Everyone is so busy trying to show that I am wrong to ask the question that no one has taken time to answer it. What potential applications are there of knowing where mass comes from in the level of detail we are speaking about here (i.e. the proof of the SM or the suggestion of one of the…

OK, I'm not a physicist, so my first thought when I hear "manipulate mass" is Star Trek. Specifically, inertial dampers. One of the big impediments to interstellar travel is the length of time and amount of energy it takes to accelerate to near-light speed. But if we could manipulate mass, perhaps we could create a field that reduces the mass of a spacecraft thus reducing its inertia? Science fiction? Probably. But it'll sure be a concrete advancement when I'm sending you a (mass-less) postcard from Alpha Centauri.

Edit: Someone who knows more may be able to give you something less fictional that could result. The problem is, there's really no way of knowing until long after the experiment has been finished (which is what everyone else here is saying). Scientific funding is already too dependent on whether an experiment appears to be likely to yield marketable results. Recently there was an article on HN about how the experimental leukemia cure that has been in the news almost didn't get funding, because it was viewed as not likely enough to be successful. It's still too early to tell, but this method of manipulating T-cells to destroy cancer cells could lead to an out-and-out cure for many types of cancer, which would be a huge milestone in medical history.

All of which has little to do with CERN, except to say that only funding things that are likely to lead to new technology would probably prevent us from making discoveries that lead to new technology.

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