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Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

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Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#121

Post by RansomStark »

Bud wrote: post #82
kadabra9 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can and should teach about the history of racism in America. We should not however be telling children to use an “oppression matrix” to group and divide one another by identity, teaching children that if they are white they are automatically racist, or teaching historical fabrications like the 1619 project.

Please support your made-up assertion that the 1619 Project is a "historical fabrication".

I'm going to assume the assertion stems from these criticisms of the project, including criticisms from someone asked to fact check the project but who claims they were ignored.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/magaz...

Sorry from formatting, currently on mobile.

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#122

Post by dlp211 »

JamesBarney wrote: post #100
dlp211 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People choosing to no longer listen to you because you have ideas that are currently considered reprehensible to the larger society is not being cancelled. That's called consequences for my actions. You are not entitled to consequence free speech & actions. This has never been a principle of free speech. Also, there is a massive difference between using government entities to ban books, and a bunch of people on Twitt…

You see the difference between not listening to something and applying political pressure to make sure it isn't spoken right? > a bunch of people on Twitter saying we don't like you and what you said No one thinks this is cancel culture. It's specifically wielding economic/political power to silence people you disagree with.

There are a lot of people that think this is cancel culture. Bobby Kotick is likely going to be "cancelled"/fired from Activision if their board has any sense in the next few days. Was he cancelled, or did his past behavior finally catch up to him?

You are not entitled to a job or a platform and the people who have control over those positions are well within their right to remove you for the views and actions you take. Removing you from a position is a form of speech. And this isn't new, we've been doing this forever. Was Nixon cancelled? Were the Dixie Chicks cancelled?

Maybe you think they were, maybe you don't, but this idea that somehow someone is cancelled because society says "we don't like your bullshit anymore" is new or dangerous is just preposterous to me.

I find the influence that right/conservatives have in infecting our school curriculum (even if not always successfully) far more dangerous. "The war of norther aggression" is an actual thing taught to actual children in the south. I find that far more damaging to our society.

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#123

Post by gunapologist99 »

groby_b wrote: post #19
Dma54rhs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it have to do with the subject even if he did? He is not writing about nft's?

Goes to critical thinking ability.

Regardless of your opinions on his beliefs, it seems a stretch to accuse one of the greatest chess minds in history of a failure of critical thinking.

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#124

Post by glangdale »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #93
glangdale wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Followup: I can't Google up the studies I read on this, as all the terms I can think of are either overloaded or heavily partisan ("cancel culture"), etc. But I have a strong recollection of seeing quantitative data on number of complaints brought against academics from outside with an attempt to figure out whether this was a left/right thing and seeing a tentative conclusion that the bulk of complaints about academi…

This database has a record of about 500 attempted or successful deplatforming on college campuses: https://www.thefire.org/how-to-use-the-disinvitation-databas... Deplatforming speakers is largely the left's MO.

Deplatforming is not the only form of external pressure applied in the academic world. Getting entire university departments closed, for example, is considered a bit more final and effective.

Also, it's interesting that even the very ideological "FIRE" group (not exactly a neutral player in all this) shows roughly 60% of user-submitted cases being deplatformed "from the left", which is far from overwhelming.

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#125

Post by aqsalose »

glangdale wrote: post #59
glangdale wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Followup: I can't Google up the studies I read on this, as all the terms I can think of are either overloaded or heavily partisan ("cancel culture"), etc. But I have a strong recollection of seeing quantitative data on number of complaints brought against academics from outside with an attempt to figure out whether this was a left/right thing and seeing a tentative conclusion that the bulk of complaints about academi…

Another good example (from a Nation article): "Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton, in a tizzy over the discontinuation by the estate of Dr. Seuss of six lesser-known books with racist content, had the audacity to gripe via social media that “the woke mob” is trying “to erase our history and cancel anyone who disagrees.” This is the same Tom Cotton who wrote a whole legislative act aimed at banning schools from teaching the…

So took a chance to Google the quoted phrase attributed to Cotton. It comes from an interview to Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, in context:

>In the interview, Cotton said the role of slavery can’t be overlooked.

>“We have to study the history of slavery and its role and impact on the development of our country because otherwise we can’t understand our country. As the Founding Fathers said, it was the necessary evil upon which the union was built, but the union was built in a way, as Lincoln said, to put slavery on the course to its ultimate extinction,” he said.

>Instead of portraying America as “an irredeemably corrupt, rotten and racist country,” the nation should be viewed “as an imperfect and flawed land, but the greatest and noblest country in the history of mankind,” Cotton said.

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2020/jul/26/bill-by-cott... via https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tom-cotton-slavery-necessa...

One common historical argument (I think I got it from H. W. Brands' biography of Benjamin Franklin that I read recently), is that there would had been no union at all if the southern states (with slavery) were not accommodated.

Of course, any decision about a school curriculum excludes other curriculums, unless one chooses to deliberately cover all aspects of debate of any debated school subject, or take an anarchist attitude of no imposed curriculum by the state, giving total control individual teachers or maybe parents themselves.

In Finland, teachers have quite much autonomy as long as the minimum standards of vaguely specified curriculum is adhered to, which is more "free speech compatible" in some sense, but that comes with failure modes too. (I had quite professional teachers in my time, but I recall reading a complaints about politically partisan teachers. System like is prone to have issues because while government schools are, in theory, part of the democratically governed system, the actual decisions about education and choice of teachers are quite many hoops and levels of hierarchy removed from the kids and the parents themselves.)

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#126

Post by s1artibartfast »

javajosh wrote: post #117
Levitz wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>BLM's problem[1] is that it's a national movement about local problems. It's city cops, not the FBI, that kill people with impunity. Which happens because black people are overrepresented when it comes to crime, which happens because they are overrepresented in being poor as dirt. There is racism in the police force in the US, no doubt, but constantly dealing with criminals and seeing a disparity in a race is bound…

I don't know that much about the internal workings of BLM. But I would think the most effective path forward is to become a viable, powerful political bloc, and then use this power to court local establishment politicians. (Heck, in a better time even the GOP would not be immune to the lure of millions of coherent votes!) This approach won't work because blacks don't vote. Which I frankly don't understand. Even with…

The biggest problem with BLM making progress is a lack of solutions they bring to the table. The only consistent proposal is to defund the police, which is very unpopular even within the black community. The majority of the black community sees neighborhood crime as a leading issue and wants to see more cops on the street (just with less discrimination and brutality).

Unless BLM can come up with another solution, I don't see them making headway with the black community. That said, other communities may be able to propel BLM agenda into action against the consensus in the black community. Really a bizarre situation overall.

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#127

Post by RansomStark »

dlp211 wrote: post #114
GoodbyeMrChips wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ummmm Our UK students unions are repeatedly preventing people speaking on campuses because they object to their views [1]. This IS 'cancel culture' and it is not healthy for our democracy. Whatever happend to "I disprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it" ? [1] https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-is-cancel-culture-aff...

You are not entitled to a platform. The student body choosing who they want to listen to is, in and of itself, a form of speech. Why is this such a difficult concept for people to understand?

The difficulty with rights is where they start and where they end.

The saying goes that my right to swing my arms ends where your face begins.

Equally the student unions right to decide what they personally listen too ends when they prevent others that want to hear the speaker from listening.

At that point they are infringing on another's right to free speech.

In the case of the student unions it is an inherently political organisation using their power to restrict the rights of what I can only assume is a minority of the student body.

Edit - formatting

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#128

Post by krinchan »

javajosh wrote: post #35
fishtoaster wrote: post #13

If you want to hear more of his view, including some solid rebuttals, I highly recommend IntelligenceSquared, a debate series that gets published as a podcast. They cover motions from culture to science to politics across the spectrum and usually get excellent, well-informed debaters on both sides. Their most recent one was "Cancel Culture is Toxic"[0] and Kasparov was arguing in favor of the motion. While I ultimate…

You felt the anti-woke side made the stronger case, but you still disagree? Can you add some more detail here?

Not OP but I listened to the debate.

Said “anti-woke” side argued well that the vein of cancel culture that oversteps and ruins the lives of people just living pay check to pay check and posting bad takes on Twitter on their 15 minute bathroom break is toxic. Meanwhile, it’s ineffective against the people who the movement claims to be targeting. They’re right, in my humble opinion. However, I vehemently disagree that it’s anything new or that it threatens discourse or “free speech.”

The “woke” side argued well about holding people accountable for what they say. Especially people with outsize influence. I also agree that it’s an important avenue for minority voices to be amplified and heard. However, the “Cancel Culture” they argued for only exists in the minority now. They didn’t really acknowledge that the majority of cancels are just normal people who post stupid Tweets that then lose their jobs and get radicalized.

In effect, they just kinda talked past each other because neither was arguing with sufficient nuance to encapsulate the entire movement. The people for the motion (the motion being “Cancel culture is toxic”) won in my head, just because they landed the closest to the reality of the situation.

For reference: My politics skew in the direction of wishing UN Agenda 21 was even half the conspiracy Republicans made it out to be. If even I’m backing away from social media and side eyeing the people to my left…uh. It’s not good.

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#129

Post by greenail »

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #20

Gotta love Kasparov. I think he's wrong about black lives matter. He's right that it's a required movement, but he's wrong that it's about power. In fact it's the opposite. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2014-10-18%202... black lives matter only exists during the election. And what do they have to show for it? Nothing at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_Justice_in_Polici... https://en.wi…

BLM is the Bailey, Biden is the Motte.

Re: Chess Grandmaster Kasparov on Mob Mentality and Groupthink

#130

Post by handrous »

liber8 wrote: post #98
handrous wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone feels that one side had a harder path to begin with due to context outside the presentation/debate itself, that can happen. To veer dangerously close to Godwinning, but I think for good reason, consider how much better a holocaust denial argument would have to be than its opponents', for you to agree with that side. You might well come away going "damn, they really did do a better job of presenting their c…

The fact that you have to repeatedly and expressly clarify that you're not equating cancel culture with holocaust denial is apt given the topic at hand. No intellectually honest person reading your analogy would be able to conclude that you're equating the two topics. And yet almost all of us feel the need to include these kinds of disclaimers so we don't face backlash from anonymous strangers on a tiny message board…

Eh, it's standard public Web forum writing. It's a terrible style and grates on me when I read it, but one I find advisable to employ at times nonetheless. Things might have gone fine without that part, but when I re-read the post I decided to err on the side of caution in this case. More to do with preventing low-value responses than any fear of backlash, at least this time.

AFAIK this kind of redundant and absurdly explicit writing style aimed squarely at bad or inattentive readers who nonetheless find the time to post (plus, the occasional troll who looks for things to misunderstand on purpose) predates the current cultural moment we're in, by years.

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