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Is there such a thing as good taste?

paulgraham.com

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Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#121

Post by beaconstudios »

dwmbt wrote: post #119
beaconstudios wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your contribution - this is similar to the impression I get about taste, not having studied aesthetics but having a passing familiarity with postmodern philosophy. Do you have any book or philosopher suggestions I could check out? I'm generally interested in epistemology and this sounds like a good angle for further reading.

i'm not a philosophy nut or anything, but consider looking into empiricism versus rationalism and looking at Paul's writing, or conversations about the objectivity/subjectivity of aesthetics through that lens. Paul lives up to his rational roots here.

PG's essay is awful - I was looking for something with more merit. PG is a logical positivist, which is just a philosophical position - it isn't inherently rational, especially outside the hard sciences.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#122

Post by watwut »

dagw wrote: post #65
soco wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let my give you my primitive explanation to this, maybe it helps a bit. Art is actually more than than the drawing itself, art always comes with a story. When the technique is so great that you can get a good hang of the story just by looking at it, you have the Sixtine chapel. Probably you won't get everything the master wanted to say at a first view, but it's already a lot. On most modern art though, you have zero…

Thus modern artists write also a lot, talk about their works Sometimes to the detriment of their works. I had a friend who was an aspiring artist, and it was fascinating listening to him talk about his art. He thought deeply about his work and a very clear vision and philosophy about what, how and why he wanted to achieve. Unfortunately his actual execution never got the same care and his actual exhibitions looked me…

To be fair, I know multiple programmers who are exactly like that.

Totally thoughtful. Can talk about development in pub for hours. Can talk about architecture, frameworks, best practices, you name it. And his code still sux, is hard to maintain and unfixable unless you refactor it.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#123

Post by personlurking »

After reading dozens over the years, I unfortunately won't read anymore PG essays due to the endless "In high school..." mentions and differences between bullies/jocks and smart kids. I would have long ago succumbed to alcohol poisoning if it were a drinking game.

I hope this essay is better. In the least, the comments here are interesting.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#124

Post by havermeyer »

nickelpro wrote: post #114
rp1 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What other considerations are there other than skill? Isn’t everything a skill? Graham lists a few other extraneous concerns that people judge art by. He asserts these are unrelated to the art itself, like which museum the art is hanging in. I agree with Graham’s premise. My theory is that people don’t believe good taste exists because most people have bad taste and that’s too big of a pill to swallow. Would you rath…

The conflation of skill with taste demonstrates exactly why Graham is wrong. There's many widely recognized works of art, by critics of similarly recognized taste, that are far less skillful than what a competent art student can put out today and yet held in higher acclaim. Post-modernism, Dada, and surrealism drove the stake through this point, The Treachery of Images or Fountain (Duchamp) aren't extremely skillful,…

There's even a subreddit dedicated to awful taste but great execution :) https://old.reddit.com/r/ATBGE/

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#125

Post by ryanSrich »

watwut wrote: post #102
ryanSrich wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is easily disproven by showing a child two paintings.

How? The kid will like the one painting targeted at kids and that is it. Also, kids are exactly the demographics super susceptible to claim liking or disliking things based on what their friends say about them.

That doesn’t make sense.

Show a kid 2 paintings they’ve never seen before. Show it to them in isolation. Guess which one they pick?

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#126

Post by jgtrosh »

jccalhoun wrote: post #84

As others have mentioned, Bourdieu would like a word with him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_(book) Graham seems to be conflating skill with taste. The artists he mentions are skilled at art and he states that he is not. Distinguishing between skilled and unskilled work may be "good taste" but what is considered good art is more than just skill.

Yes, it seems to me that Paul's reasoning makes this mix up at this point:

> So if you want to discard the concept of good taste, you also have to discard the concept of good art. And that means you have to discard the possibility of people being good at making it.

People can be measurably good at realising specific criteria, even if you can't absolutely compare these criteria.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#128

Post by mrcolin000 »

motohagiography wrote: post #103

Wrote professionally about taste in a previous life. It is related more closely than we expect to techne or competence from physical knowledge. When we think of poor taste, we tend to think of symbols that are separated from their function and meaning, where instead of representing that, "I do this thing," something gaudy says, "I have this thing!" That's what crassness is, and it comes down to our relative apprehens…

Great comment... I would also like to ask for a book recommendation. Thanks!

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#129

Post by lr4444lr »

watwut wrote: post #113
lr4444lr wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it doesn't hold up the other way when you remove one piece. I'd wager most people would select a Michaelangelo replica even if they were directly told it was a replica than the dot on the canvas if told it was a replica of whatever artist made it.

Select for what? Art students nowdays can create Michealengelo like art. Not just reproduction, but own pieces with same style. They are not admired nor anything like that. Also, I would not picked any of those for living room. Might pick dot for background screen. And this choice have nothing to do with actual value of either.

Art students, yes. But not the average guy off the street as compare to a single dot on a canvas.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#130

Post by syrusakbary »

It feels like taste and expertise are mixed in the essay. Once the expertise variable is added to the mix, the reductio ad absurdum examples no longer work.

Given that good taste is usually measured by people with expertise, can you really develop good taste without expertise?

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