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Is there such a thing as good taste?

paulgraham.com

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Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#101

Post by [deleted] »

andi999 wrote: post #91
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #49

Go to guy on this is Bourdieu. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bourdieu#Theory_of_capi... PG may say that his father pushed him in a different direction. But I suspect - like me - PG grew up with the cultural direction of the BBC and its mission to "inform, educate, and entertain." So if you were a bright curious kid your parents wouldn't necessarily be the ultimate authorities on culture and taste. There were o…

Next thing you want to tell me is that wine doesn't really taste good? (the high quality wine of course)

[deleted]

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#102

Post by watwut »

ryanSrich wrote: post #86
codeulike wrote: post #7

This ignores the sociological aspects - having 'good taste' in something (art, sneakers, car modifications, tattoos) is a way of signalling membership of a group or distinction within that group. Even being interested in [classical] 'art' in the first place is a signifier of being in a certain strata of society. The way this essay is written seems anchored in one very particular social strata and the signifiers that…

This is easily disproven by showing a child two paintings.

How? The kid will like the one painting targeted at kids and that is it.

Also, kids are exactly the demographics super susceptible to claim liking or disliking things based on what their friends say about them.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#103

Post by motohagiography »

Wrote professionally about taste in a previous life. It is related more closely than we expect to techne or competence from physical knowledge.

When we think of poor taste, we tend to think of symbols that are separated from their function and meaning, where instead of representing that, "I do this thing," something gaudy says, "I have this thing!" That's what crassness is, and it comes down to our relative apprehension of the real vs. the represented, where typically, something real is powerful independent of who is observing it, and the representation is not. It's whether something legitimately represents power. Taste may be an instinct for honest signals, which would seem like its own sort of intelligence.

Viewed this way, taste is the expression of what you percieve to be power based on your experience, good taste is the inverse of the distance between them, and poor taste is measured in the gap between what is affected and of-what it is the effect.

That difference between effect and affect is one of the sneakiest bits of the english language and perhaps even the culture's most cunningly set trap. Do not underestimate the value of good taste, it's an intuition about power.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#104

Post by keiferski »

This is a question of relativism. Taste is ultimately about value, and "good taste" in art is just one aspect of culture at large. So, if you doubt if "good taste" exists, you also probably think that everyone has the right to believe whatever they want and everyone should be able to exist how they want. You can call this relativistic individualism.

I bring this up because the topic reminds me of a philosopher of religion, Charles Taylor. One of his points is that this relativistic individualism inevitably leads to our own inability to express what we value. It's a kind of "explanatory atrophy." If your default position is I have my way and he has his, and that's all there really is to it you lose the ability to present and shape your own opinion in reaction to others. Most people don't have the vocabulary to articulate this, so "that's in bad taste" ends up just turning into Dudeism.. that's just your opinion, man.

So when confronted with something we think is in bad taste, we can't put vague thoughts into words, and therefore just fall back to "it's his/her personal taste, who I am to criticize?"

Ultimately, this question arises from a lack of education and cultural interest in the arts and in aesthetics. Without it, the definition of good taste will ultimately boil down to the opinions of whoever has money, power, or popularity.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#105

Post by [deleted] »

FemmeAndroid wrote: post #37

> I started studying painting. And it was just like other kinds of work I'd done: you could do it well, or badly, and if you tried hard, you could get better at it. And it was obvious that Leonardo and Bellini were much better at it than me. That gap between us was not imaginary. They were so good. And if they could be good, then art could be good, and there was such a thing as good taste after all. This doesn’t hold…

[deleted]

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#106

Post by sombremesa »

andi999 wrote: post #91
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #49

Go to guy on this is Bourdieu. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bourdieu#Theory_of_capi... PG may say that his father pushed him in a different direction. But I suspect - like me - PG grew up with the cultural direction of the BBC and its mission to "inform, educate, and entertain." So if you were a bright curious kid your parents wouldn't necessarily be the ultimate authorities on culture and taste. There were o…

Next thing you want to tell me is that wine doesn't really taste good? (the high quality wine of course)

Who determines that the wine is high quality? You’ve already established taste there, regardless of the wine’s taste.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#107

Post by rp1 »

jccalhoun wrote: post #84

As others have mentioned, Bourdieu would like a word with him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_(book) Graham seems to be conflating skill with taste. The artists he mentions are skilled at art and he states that he is not. Distinguishing between skilled and unskilled work may be "good taste" but what is considered good art is more than just skill.

What other considerations are there other than skill? Isn’t everything a skill? Graham lists a few other extraneous concerns that people judge art by. He asserts these are unrelated to the art itself, like which museum the art is hanging in.

I agree with Graham’s premise. My theory is that people don’t believe good taste exists because most people have bad taste and that’s too big of a pill to swallow. Would you rather admit to having bad taste, or posit that taste doesn’t exist? This is supported by Graham’s observation that contemporary art critics are nearly always disproven a generation or two later, meaning most critics have flawed taste.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#108

Post by watwut »

lr4444lr wrote: post #2

I don't get into these kinds of discussions with people anymore, because they're not socially palatable. I try to stay open minded too about perspectives that are not mine, and try to be objective about my own biases. But I can't shake the feeling that much as someone might validly prefer some abstract dot on a white canvas to the Sistine Chapel ceiling, who would more likely impress the fans of the other, that artis…

> But I can't shake the feeling that much as someone might validly prefer some abstract dot on a white canvas to the Sistine Chapel ceiling,

That is straw position.

> who would more likely impress the fans of the other, that artist trying to reproduce Michaelangelo's work or vice versa?

There are many artist capable to reproduce Michaelangelo's work. They are not impressing people who admire Michaelangelo or classical art. People who admire Michaelangelo typically fully understand that people after Michaelangelo learned from him. They also understand Michaelangelo was working, learning and studying having limitations we don't have.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#109

Post by beaconstudios »

motohagiography wrote: post #103

Wrote professionally about taste in a previous life. It is related more closely than we expect to techne or competence from physical knowledge. When we think of poor taste, we tend to think of symbols that are separated from their function and meaning, where instead of representing that, "I do this thing," something gaudy says, "I have this thing!" That's what crassness is, and it comes down to our relative apprehens…

Thanks for your contribution - this is similar to the impression I get about taste, not having studied aesthetics but having a passing familiarity with postmodern philosophy. Do you have any book or philosopher suggestions I could check out? I'm generally interested in epistemology and this sounds like a good angle for further reading.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#110

Post by [deleted] »

codeulike wrote: post #7

This ignores the sociological aspects - having 'good taste' in something (art, sneakers, car modifications, tattoos) is a way of signalling membership of a group or distinction within that group. Even being interested in [classical] 'art' in the first place is a signifier of being in a certain strata of society. The way this essay is written seems anchored in one very particular social strata and the signifiers that…

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