London riots / UK riots: verified areas • Hacker News Board

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#121

Post by arethuza » Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 9:46 AM UTC

Mz wrote: post #91

hashbo wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends how old you are mate :-)

I'm 46. I was just shy of my fifth birthday when the Kent State Shootings occurred. Age surveys suggest that people on HN are predominantly in their 20's and 30's. Attitudes about time aren't necessarily age dependent. I find that people from older cultures tend to have a longer view of time than your typical American. I do happen to be American. "Mate" implies you are not. Peace.

The inquiry into the killings only fininished last year - and, as you would expect, there was a lot of coverage in the UK of Bloody Sunday so isn't something that has been forgotten about (and given the nature of the killings it really shouldn't be):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_Inquiry

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#122

Post by yaix » Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 10:04 AM UTC

temphn wrote: post #61

SandB0x wrote: post #14

I'm in my flat in NW2 and I can hear police cars going down the Edgware Road. Fucking terrifying. The police can't keep up, according to the news they're showing up hours late to everything and they don't have any water cannons. Bad times. Edit: #riotcleanup tomorrow morning all over town: http://twitter.com/#!/search/riotcleanup

The fundamental problem is that the police are not free to use the force necessary to put down the riot. If rioters knew they would be shot on sight, they would stop rioting. As it is, police are afraid to crack down for fear that they'll be brought up on charges of "police brutality". Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish actual firearms. EDIT: Amazed that someone downvoted this…

Wow.

In Europe we prefer to find the problem and solve it, discuss and communicate with each other, instead of shooting at people and hope they'll be too scared to continue rioting.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#123

Post by Mz » Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 10:25 AM UTC

diogenescynic wrote: post #103

Mz wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the real reason it was acceptable to call in the military is because fairly high numbers of people had already died (and thousands were injured and the property damage was very high). Killing a few more to actually stop it becomes more palatable in the face of something like that. Excerpt from the wikipedia article: Fifty-three people died during the riots[24] with as many as 2,000 people injured. Estimates…

I agree but if you watch the footage from back then it's a case study in media framing bias. A lot of the stories focused on blacks rioting/looting white small businesses. Similar to how Katrina was framed. Now imagine any other ethnic riot in another city where this would be acceptable--it doesn't exist unless they are brown in a predominantly white city. The military would never be used against a majority of whites…

I do recall Katrina being framed that way by the media. But I also remember watching the LA riots and my impression was always that the military got sent in because it was so out of hand and not stopping. The military has also been sent in historically to protect blacks when schools were desegregated and for other Civil Rights incidents on behalf of blacks. Just because the media shows it's bias doesn't mean racial bias is why the military does the things it does.

Not entirely on topic, since the soldiers don't decide where they go, but while we are on the topic(s) of racism and the military: The US military tends to be more multi-racial/multi-cultural than most civilian social climes and there tends to be less racism in it. The joke in the military is that they are the "green" race -- ie the color of their uniform makes them all one "race", separate from the civilians who are typically not very welcoming of the military members stationed in their community yet still want to milk them for money. The loyalty to a cause larger than themselves and willingness to bleed and die for it seems to overcome differences that are often insurmountable in the minds of other people. That whole "I am willing to die defending you and you are willing to die defending me" paradigm is a commitment and a bond deeper than many families or lovers have. It makes things like skin color seem rather superficial and insignificant in comparison.

My ex was wonderfully non-racist and I became uncomfortably aware of just how much my mind had been poisoned from growing up in the Deep South when I finally met his best friend at a new duty station after months of hearing glowing things about the guy. The guy was black. My ex had never once mentioned that and the surprise showed on my face, which made for a very awkward meeting. It has been food for thought ever since about the topic of racism and I think I have grown as a person because of it.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#124

Post by madamepsychosis » Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 10:28 AM UTC

vii wrote: post #57

Seems to me that this would be a huge opportunity for some well co-ordinated use of social media by the MET: many people have seen looters return to their home with their swag and would probably be delighted to report it anonymously - along with all photos taken by people of the actual looting. The refugees seem to have no clear contact number let alone website to go to on their smartphones. These people surely are m…

There's a twitter campaign to clean up london, @riotcleanup

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#125

Post by atomicdog » Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 10:42 AM UTC

geboyr wrote: post #95

jamesbritt wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't anybody there armed? Is it illegal to use a weapon to defend your home?

Apparently most of the police do not carry guns as well. I saw that it was questioned earlier if some of the forces being used to maintain order are now carrying guns, but I don't think there was a definitive answer. The Metropolitan police might(?)

Considering this whole situation was sparked off by armed police firing on a man who (apparently) hadn't fired on them, things could get real ugly if more armed police are added to the equation.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#126

Post by waitwhat » Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 11:02 AM UTC

baguasquirrel wrote: post #112

barrkel wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't bet on it. The group dynamic (deindividuation[1]) behind rioting is exactly the same as the group dynamic used to build armies that are willing to risk their lives on orders. Introducing military on the streets like was done in Northern Ireland[2] is a recipe for decades of pain and division. The military are not police; you don't want that. [1] http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/02/10/deindividuation/ http://en.…

Whatever dude. Just ask anyone who grew up in anything resembling a ghetto. There's lots of us who begin to think that shooting rioters on sight is not a bad idea. Where do you think Boondock Saints came from? Honestly, at some point, you just get sick of the shit and you want it to stop, and solutions like the military become appealing. And therein lies the problem. We know it's inhumane. We know it degrades us furt…

Where do you think Boondock Saints came from?

Hollywood. Where do you think they're from?

Please leave cinematic fantasies where they belong: on the other side of the silver screen.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#127

Post by adimitrov » Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 11:31 AM UTC

jamesbritt wrote: post #83

ottbot wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very frustrating knowing the police can do little to contain or manage the situation, and we're completely at the mercy of rioters as to what will happen next or when it will stop. A group of 30-40 of them went up my street, smashing cars, and started congregating out front, all holding glass bottles -- this just when reports of homes being broken into started coming out. Absolutely horrifying, luckily something…

Isn't anybody there armed? Is it illegal to use a weapon to defend your home?

It is difficult for me to stay objective when it comes to gun possession, because I'm strongly anti-guns, and I can't seem to even begin to understand Americans' attitudes on the subject, but I'll give it my best shot:

Remember what was the "cause"[1] for these riots? A person got shot. The situation is already out of control, but if half the rioters and half the citizens and all of the police were carrying guns, I honestly think London would be a war zone right now.

One thing that - to me, at least - has always been obvious is a direct proportional relation between guns and violence. Less guns, less violence; more guns more violence. Weapons are a catalyst for violence.

These are people fighting people. Any guns would be evenly distributed among the defenders and the attackers, and thus not serve to end or cool the conflict, but further exacerbate the situation.

Any mob is better than an armed mob. Arming the citizens would be arming the mob, since the mob actually consists of citizens. I do not think guns would help anybody.

I don't even think that guns would help the police. I'm glad the police are not using arms against the mob.

And yes, if I had to choose between somebody breaking into my house and stealing/breaking everything, and having a gunfight with said person, I'd choose the former, without even blinking. Call me meek, but I'd rather lose my livelihood than my life. Where I come from, health is always valued more than possessions.

----

[1] I know "cause" is not the right word. The shot drug dealer wasn't any more a cause for the riots than Helena's rapture by Paris was a cause for the Trojan siege. Doesn't mean that the Trojans would have been wise to counteract the Greeks by abducting more women. The mob is taking it as a primary reason to run amok, and more people getting killed would add more anger.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#128

Post by thom » Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 12:08 PM UTC

techiferous wrote: post #71

bokonist wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forty years ago Harvard Professor Edward Banfield wrote a chapter in his book about the riots of the 1960's. From what I can tell, almost everything he wrote applies to these current riots in London. The primary reason that people riot is that rioting is fun. It gives an immense surge of adrenaline and other hormones, it gives the thrill of chaos and action, of the power of mindless destruction. In order for a riot t…

the thrill of chaos and action, of the power of mindless destruction. I find that really hard to relate to, although I do see this in some people. I wonder if these people have ever had the thrill of creation--birthing something beautiful and unique into the world? That's quite a rush, too. Are riots ultimately a symptom of a failure to educate, to guide, to nurture?

In geek circles, these feelings are usually channelled into an obsession with the zombie apocalypse.

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#129

Post by Blarat » Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 12:38 PM UTC

atomicdog wrote: post #125

geboyr wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently most of the police do not carry guns as well. I saw that it was questioned earlier if some of the forces being used to maintain order are now carrying guns, but I don't think there was a definitive answer. The Metropolitan police might(?)

Considering this whole situation was sparked off by armed police firing on a man who (apparently) hadn't fired on them, things could get real ugly if more armed police are added to the equation.

the reports I read said there was a gunfight, so I guess the police got shot at too. But that story might have changed?

Re: London riots / UK riots: verified areas

#130

Post by tintin » Tue, Aug 09, 2011, 1:29 PM UTC

vii wrote: post #57

Seems to me that this would be a huge opportunity for some well co-ordinated use of social media by the MET: many people have seen looters return to their home with their swag and would probably be delighted to report it anonymously - along with all photos taken by people of the actual looting. The refugees seem to have no clear contact number let alone website to go to on their smartphones. These people surely are m…

http://www.flickr.com/photos/metropolitanpolice/

Looter archive.