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Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

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Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#121
post #10

I want to ignore most of this article to complain about an inaccuracy that keeps coming up. > More broadly, they said the change will break end-to-end encryption for iMessage, which Apple has staunchly defended in other contexts. But... it wouldn't. The iMessage feature doesn't expose the contents of your message to anyone else under any circumstance. If you're a child under 13 and your parents have opted in to this…

Let's also not pretend that some of this confusion done is 100% willfully by some of the news organizations reporting on this because it benefits them to conflate the two. We even see it a little from places like EFF who appear to believe their ends justify the means.

The odd thing is that it doesn't benefit the EFF to conflate the two.

The EFF's first article objecting to these features objected to the parental control on the grounds that if, say, I send your 12 or under kid a sex photo and your kid elects to continue after being warned the image might be harmful, and then elects to still continue after receiving a warning that if they do so their parent will be notified and see the image too, it is violating my privacy because I did not consent for the parents to see the sex pictures I'm sending to their kid.

Now their objection seems to be that if I'm, say, a 12 or under gay kid who is not out to my parents, receive a sex image on my phone that might reveal I'm gay, and I elect to view that image after being explicitly told my parents will see it too and confirming that I still want to view it, I might get outed to my parents.

Note that in both these scenarios the child knows their phone has parental controls enabled, has to go through two full screen dialogs that try to discourage them from viewing the image to view it, both of those have rejecting the photo as the highlighted option, and the second explicitly reminds them that if they view the photo their parents will be notified and shown a blurred version of the photo. And note that if they choose to reject the photo rather than view it, there is no parental notification.

For years, privacy advocates (including the EFF) have said when governments wanted to legislate controls server side or at the ISP level to provide a safer net environment for young children that the right approach is to give parents the tools to ensure a safe net environment for their children.

So now we are getting a parental control that goes out of its way to not notify parents or share a blurred photo with them unless the child explicitly chooses to view it knowing that this will happen--and they are objecting to that.

After this it is hard to imagine any parental control system that the EFF would approve of and that is actually even remotely effective. It makes them look like an organization that is just going to raise knee jerk reactions to every proposed solution, nor matter how reasonable.

When an organization raises objections to every attempt to solve real problems at some point policy makers stop caring what they have to say, and the EFF has either reached that point or is real close to it. They need to start suggesting alternate solutions to those problems if they want people that matter to listen to them.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless they change the system, no notification would happen without multiple matches. Also, dissidents can just turn off iCloud sync and no scanning will happen.

What would prevent governments from requiring Apple to scan regardless of iCloud state in order to do business within their borders?

How would Apple target the hash database to a specific phone without an iCloud connection?

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd need 30 of them. And upload them iCloud. I guess the neural part is a bit of a blackbox, im not sure if theres a way for external parties to verify its legitimatcy. But again, any change to would go noticed.

You wouldn't need 30 of them or to upload them to iCloud. If a nation state can demand Apple uses their existing function to scan your phone for political images, then they can likewise demand that 1 hit would be enough, and that there's no requirement for it to be uploaded to iCloud before the scanning can start.

https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni...

Read the technical documentation.

They're combining Private Set Intersection and Threshold Secret Sharing in a way that means that 1 hit, isn't enough. They can't even tell how many red flags you have.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#124

Im not sure if im missing something here, but from what I understand, what Apple is proposing is an enormous privacy boon that seems to be completely misunderstood. All cloud providers are required to, and do, make these scans. The proposal provides a way for them to comply with that requirement, but at the same time, allows them to completely lock themselves out of being able to decrypt your data in the cloud, excep…

> All cloud providers are required to, and do, make these scans. No scanning is required by law. In fact, the law states you don't have to go out of your way to invade privacy to scan. So yes, you and tons of other people are missing a big piece in this.

I didn't realise this!

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#125
post #47

Im not sure if im missing something here, but from what I understand, what Apple is proposing is an enormous privacy boon that seems to be completely misunderstood. All cloud providers are required to, and do, make these scans. The proposal provides a way for them to comply with that requirement, but at the same time, allows them to completely lock themselves out of being able to decrypt your data in the cloud, excep…

The concern is that Apple is handing governments a new tool to go “give me a list of all users that have this photo”. It could track down dissidents based on this and combined with metadata is probably sufficient to pinpoint who took a particular picture. Think you shared that picture of police brutality anonymously? Think again.

But what im getting at. Is that this is exactly what Apple is trying to fight.

A government could already coerce Apple into handing over iCloud data.

The cryptography at play here, combined Private Set Intersection and Threshold Secret Sharing are clear steps to make it as hard as possible for any institution to body this for that reason.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#126

Im not sure if im missing something here, but from what I understand, what Apple is proposing is an enormous privacy boon that seems to be completely misunderstood. All cloud providers are required to, and do, make these scans. The proposal provides a way for them to comply with that requirement, but at the same time, allows them to completely lock themselves out of being able to decrypt your data in the cloud, excep…

There is no requirement to scan, only report when found. There is NO end to end encryption being rolled out at the same time (so they can still decrypt and hand over your data in the cloud). > This means they couldn't comply with a nation states demand to secretly decrypt your data, even if they were legally compelled too, unless they change how the cryptography at play here works. Not only is this completely wrong (…

I didn't realise that theres no requirement to scan. So I'll yield on that.

But its still possible that Apple are preparing for a scenario where it does become a requirement in the future.

As for the E2EE part, I can't imagine that this wouldn't be launched with E2EE alongside, otherwise theres literally no point whatsoever, they could have just done the scan on iCloud.

As for why this combats 'your data being whisked away', check the technical documentation. What they're doing with Private Set Intersection and Threshold Secret Sharing are clear steps to make this system unexploitable, anonymous, and so that it doesn't leak any metadata whatsoever.

https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni...

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#127

Im not sure if im missing something here, but from what I understand, what Apple is proposing is an enormous privacy boon that seems to be completely misunderstood. All cloud providers are required to, and do, make these scans. The proposal provides a way for them to comply with that requirement, but at the same time, allows them to completely lock themselves out of being able to decrypt your data in the cloud, excep…

- I don't want to be treated like a pedophile for a device that I should, in theory, own because I paid for it. - I don't want the rules to change in the future for what will be scanned. - I don't want to support Apple scanning for pictures of Tank Man for the CCP. - I don't want an untested proprietary algorithm making decisions about me that could alter my life. It's already been shown that you can make innocent pi…

I see these points. But I guess personally, as someone that benefits financially from technology and the internet, I feel some level of responsibility to ensure that it isn't used to exploit the most vulnerable in society.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#128
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no 'rest of CSAM monitoring'. The CSAM stuff is totally separate from the iMessage stuff we're discussing here. > And nice that you abuse your karma to downvote people who don't agree with you. I did not downvote you; not that you be able to tell if I did, anyway.

Literally the first sentence under the article headline "More than 90 policy and rights groups ask company to abandon plans for scanning phones of adults for images of child sex abuse.". Maybe YOU weren't talking about csam, but everyone else was including the article author, if you even read it.

This particular thread and your own comments in this thread are about iMessage, with your comment implying it reports sexually explicit images to "big brother".

I pointed out that's not true (that's probably why other people downvoted your comment) and that you're apparently confusing the iMessage stuff with the CSAM scanning stuff which, as I already said, are completely separate from each other.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#129
post #9

After seeing all these posts here and not hearing much about it outside of this space I’m starting to think that the cost benefit analysis that Apple did was that the profit from very likely convincing parents to spend a little more to get their children an iPhone as their first phone (and probably lock those children into their ecosystem) because of these features was greater than the amount of users who would switc…

> convincing parents to spend a little more to get their children an iPhone as their first phone What do you mean here: I don't think makes things any safer for child _users_ of iPhones, does it? It's scanning for images of child sexual abuse. (To anyone inclined to respond without reading the context, I'm not suggesting that there's no privacy concern if you're not sharing CP. I'm addressing OP's hypothetical that s…

Ah, thanks for the details.

Though I still don't see how the parent comment's theory holds: I suspect that the PR backlash would be far smaller/nonexistent for this feature than for the CSAM one, as we already accept that the rights of minors are heavily curtailed.

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