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Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

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Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#121

Post by dehrmann »

bigyikes wrote: post #77
least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

Honest question: aren’t schematics trade secrets? Won’t public schematics make it easier for others to copy? That seems like a big deal to me. If I were designing a new piece of technology, I wouldn’t necessarily want to publish my schematics. I ask this as somebody who would love to have the schematics of all my devices. I would love to know why this actually isn’t a big deal.

Sorta, but unless you want source for the chip, there likely isn't anything that interesting you can learn from looking at traces, even with pins labeled. Competitors probably already do this for every new, interesting device. The biggest risk is probably device security, but you can't really depend on pinouts being secret for that.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#122

Post by jsiepkes »

Too wrote: post #120

Trust is a thing that is becoming more and more important these days with more and more of users secrets going through our devices. Wouldn't want all your email or banking details to be sucked up by a cheap wifi-chip which could have backdoors either by design or by accident. This is also why one should stay away from cheap IoT-gimmicks. Another interesting aspect is reputation of quality in case repair shops don't r…

> Trust is a thing that is becoming more and more important these days with more and more of users secrets going through our devices.

How many hardware backdoored PC's have you encountered in your life?

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#123

Post by dehrmann »

lsiebert wrote: post #103

I want both a repairability index and a recyclability index, with increased taxes on sales of items that are less repairable or recyclable. Those items are more costly to repair or recycle, and thus more wasteful and inefficient. I think it's better to align financial incentives.

Repairability might not be interesting for something that people only own for three years. It's hard to measure for new devices, but reliability is just as important.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#124

Post by dehrmann »

totalZero wrote: post #100

My recent experience showed me the importance of right to repair laws. I took an 8yo MacBook Pro to an Apple Store to have the battery replaced. They did the service, but when I got the device back, the MagSafe charging port would overheat substantially while recharging. I brought it back to an Apple Store and asked them to take a look at the DC-in board under warranty because something obviously got messed up during…

On one hand, it'd be nice to get the board so you can fix it yourself. On the other, if Apple doesn't know how to diagnose or fix its own hardware, I'm not sure most repair shops would be any better. Or maybe competition in the repair space would make them up their game.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#125

Post by _the_inflator »

hawski wrote: post #6

I really like Thom Holwerda's from OSnews take on the article. Especially the "glorified toaster makers" part. https://www.osnews.com/story/133436/microsoft-and-apple-wage... > What’s good enough for the car industry, is more than good enough for these glorified toaster makers. Cars are basically murder weapons we kind of screwed ourselves into being reliant on, but Apple and Microsoft make complicated toasters that…

I disagree.

I think this argument will backfire in a couple of years from now.

A car does not feature my personal data - up to now. A harddisk with your account information and so on is not the same as an engine.

Car makers become more and more data aware and ironically there is no engine in the traditional sense in e-cars anymore.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#126

Post by Glavnokoman »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #44
least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

I have a proposal: if the company sells some urepairable, unrecycleable and toxic piece of shit, then the customer/landfill/the government will post the e-waste to their head office and they are responsible for storing it untill the end of time. That will get incentives in the right place.

Only if you can force them to properly recycle and not just drop in the ocean.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#127

Post by [deleted] »

dehrmann wrote: post #124
totalZero wrote: post #100

My recent experience showed me the importance of right to repair laws. I took an 8yo MacBook Pro to an Apple Store to have the battery replaced. They did the service, but when I got the device back, the MagSafe charging port would overheat substantially while recharging. I brought it back to an Apple Store and asked them to take a look at the DC-in board under warranty because something obviously got messed up during…

On one hand, it'd be nice to get the board so you can fix it yourself. On the other, if Apple doesn't know how to diagnose or fix its own hardware, I'm not sure most repair shops would be any better. Or maybe competition in the repair space would make them up their game.

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#128

Post by smolder »

jsiepkes wrote: post #122
Too wrote: post #120

Trust is a thing that is becoming more and more important these days with more and more of users secrets going through our devices. Wouldn't want all your email or banking details to be sucked up by a cheap wifi-chip which could have backdoors either by design or by accident. This is also why one should stay away from cheap IoT-gimmicks. Another interesting aspect is reputation of quality in case repair shops don't r…

> Trust is a thing that is becoming more and more important these days with more and more of users secrets going through our devices. How many hardware backdoored PC's have you encountered in your life?

The GP included "accidentally backdoored", in which case that's probably all of them. Even if you exclude accidents, there are probably some deliberately created, not-yet-burned covert access techniques for many devices. We don't know what we don't know, but we do know there are agencies tasked with Total Information Awareness, and have some evidence of the type of stuff they get up to.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#129

Post by jve »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #66
908B64B197 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good approach. What would be even more interesting is to evaluate how reliable parts are. Spinning hard drives were often the first thing to fail for instance, due to the mechanical stress. Same thing for ports. Soldered-on RAM and flash, while almost impossible to upgrade, is way more reliable. No vibrations means way less mechanical stress.

Flash doesn't fail due to mechanical stress, it fails due to wear cycles which are limited in every case. In every PC or laptop I can replace the flash storge except in the newer devices of the famous fruity manufacturer. And RAM may be reliable but when it's replaceable it means I can upgrade it and use the device for longer instead of having to buy a new device.

Bring your device to BGA reworker and he can change the chips on board.

I really don't like the idea that manufacturers MUST provide easily replaceable parts. That will affect product weight and dimensions.

Anyways, repair shops are dealing with chips all the time, so I see no problem of chips being changed, swapped and, if manufacturer provides list of supported RAM chips - those can be changed too.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#130

Post by guerrilla »

Glavnokoman wrote: post #126
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a proposal: if the company sells some urepairable, unrecycleable and toxic piece of shit, then the customer/landfill/the government will post the e-waste to their head office and they are responsible for storing it untill the end of time. That will get incentives in the right place.

Only if you can force them to properly recycle and not just drop in the ocean.

That should already be the law, no?
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