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Open letter from researchers involved in the “hypocrite commit” debacle

lore.kernel.org

121–130 of 384 posts

Re: Open letter from researchers involved in the “hypocrite commit” debacle

#122

This apology fails from the 5th word: "We sincerely apologize for any harm..." While there are other requirements, a sincere apology cannot in any way entertain doubt about the fact that there WAS harm. Truly acknowledging the harm done is foundational to a real apology, and most of us (myself included) end up sneaking in weasel words or phrases like this. Psychologically, its nice for the apologizer, since it allows…

The issue I have with the letter (not being involved at all and just following) is that it feels like an apology of the bully at school that took your lunch money, and the parents found out.

Honestly, for all we know this letter could be meaningless. A real good actor would also reveal the other commits in order to have a full disclosure.

Trust isn't based on promises, trust is based on past actions. Therefore they should be treated as such, as their actions are evidence for being a potentially malicious actor.

I'm still convinced Greg did the right thing here, as it's better to be safe than sorry in this case due to the sheer scale of an attack vector that the actors might have introduced.

Even if other commits of good actors at the same University are now treated with more attention to their code, I think they are a casualty that was predictable in the moment the ethics commitee signed off the paper's research procedure.

Re: Open letter from researchers involved in the “hypocrite commit” debacle

#124
Do not entertain these people's pony show. Do not give them attention. The only way for UMN to be redeemed is for them to expel all the researchers responsible and to fire all the staff tangentially responsible for letting it happen.

Re: Open letter from researchers involved in the “hypocrite commit” debacle

#125

This apology fails from the 5th word: "We sincerely apologize for any harm..." While there are other requirements, a sincere apology cannot in any way entertain doubt about the fact that there WAS harm. Truly acknowledging the harm done is foundational to a real apology, and most of us (myself included) end up sneaking in weasel words or phrases like this. Psychologically, its nice for the apologizer, since it allows…

In researcher's shoes, I would retract paper from IEEE, only then send open latter. Because they did not do this, does not looks like there's open letter is sincere, I am sure researcher's aware that there where multiple complaints regarding there's paper before ban. The least they could have done is acknowledge such failures in open letter.

Re: Open letter from researchers involved in the “hypocrite commit” debacle

#126
First, they released their apology on a Saturday? The Friday / Saturday release is generally a bit shady to start with.

The single mention of the IRB and lack of apology for doing human behavior research without permission of the test subjects is still problematic. I suppose being involved with an industry that does A/B testing on users might be an excuse.

Also, "any harm" should be "the harm" in a sincere apology.

Re: Open letter from researchers involved in the “hypocrite commit” debacle

#127
post #10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just about to post: "This is a great apology." Context is everything, of course. I think you're right that it's tainted by the fact that they absolutely did not have a choice, and coming from people who've deceived the same tribes they're now trying to apologize to.

And what of the merits? If the previous 190 patches were indeed legitimate it strikes me as overly vengeful to pull them in a "punish the son for the sins of the father and the father for the sins of the son" kind of way.

Why would you trust anyone who pulls this kind of stunt? IMO pulling all commits pending review and banning future commits is a reasonable precaution, particularly given this disingenuous apology and the failings of the University oversight board.

Re: Open letter from researchers involved in the “hypocrite commit” debacle

#128
There are some relatively minor issues with this apology that appear to already have ample discussion here, and I'll not repeat it. I want something more: I want to hear from the sponsoring faculty, research ethics board, and editors of the journal that published the article. There appear to be some systemic issues in addition to the investigators' ill-considered project. How was it that this research, which is clearly unethical, ended up being published? I've sat on an IRB: this study would not even have been a close call. Did sponsoring faculty even send it for IRB approval? Did they disclose that they were misleading their subjects? If so, did the IRB approve it? Did it make any recommendations? When submitted for publication, did they state they had IRB approval? Did they disclose that they were misleading experimental subjects? Did any reviewers express ethical concerns? Were the ethics of this study discussed by editors? Because there's either some serious systemic flaws in the review and publication process for this paper or the investigators engaged in serious misconduct. If the latter an apology (while absolutely required) is far from sufficient to address the issue. If the former, then there are several other apologies due, along with confirmation that the process will be reviewed and corrected.

Re: Open letter from researchers involved in the “hypocrite commit” debacle

#130

This apology fails from the 5th word: "We sincerely apologize for any harm..." While there are other requirements, a sincere apology cannot in any way entertain doubt about the fact that there WAS harm. Truly acknowledging the harm done is foundational to a real apology, and most of us (myself included) end up sneaking in weasel words or phrases like this. Psychologically, its nice for the apologizer, since it allows…

> end up sneaking in weasel words or phrases like this.

Honestly, based on the way they handled their "research" in the first place, sneaking weasel words into an open apology letter is entirely par for the course...

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