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The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

scientificamerican.com

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Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#121

Post by brigandish »

maxehmookau wrote: post #67
brigandish wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite the opposite. We proved that the imposition of “acceptable” information and censorship to protect it holds back societies, and can see that those with greater freedoms do better economically and otherwise.

[citation needed] That's a pretty bold statement. I'm pro free speech, but believe it should have limits in a civilized society. I don't know what the answer is, or where the line should be but entirely unrestricted free speech isn't the infalable utopia that the US is conditioned to believe.

Shall we begin with some egregious examples and go from there?

How is Nazi Germany doing? Or East Germany?

Soviet Russia?

Clearly there's an impossible hump of correlation/causation, but that doesn't mean we can't show at least part of the data set to be true - that you are far more likely to fail or be a horrible place to live.

> entirely unrestricted free speech isn't the infalable utopia that the US is conditioned to believe

It wouldn't be a utopia, it would just be better than the alternative, like most liberties. Utopianism is a vision that is associated with a lack of freedom and collectivism (large scale collectivism necessarily entails curtailed freedom), not with enhanced liberty.

> I'm pro free speech, but believe it should have limits in a civilized society

To be civilised implies two things, primarily:

- greater learning - better manners

That you can learn more where information is unrestricted should need no explanation.

As to manners, what better sign of good manners and civility can there be when you may say whatever you like without fear of punishment and yet you remain civil?

Hence, a more civilised society has less limits on what you can say and imbues its citizens with greater responsibility to practise that speech well.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#122

Post by DougN7 »

orev wrote: post #102
psychiatrist24 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you have witnessed that, wouldn't it be prudent to remain doubtful about any new advice coming from the field? After all, the probability of it being thrown out in the future seems to be almost 100%?

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of science. Science is a process , not a library of knowledge. You do the best you can with the info you have right now. Every time science changes, it means it’s getting better. Anything else is religion — wanting to have a single unchanging answer forever. That’s the appeal of religion, and in the short term it might make you feel better, but in the long term it cannot adapt…

The problem is science almost always (except maybe in physics??) pretends it has arrived at the ultimate truth this time. It’s easy to detect too: just watch for the phrase “but now we know...”

It would help tremendously if new information was presented with some humility.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#123

Post by maxehmookau »

brigandish wrote: post #121
maxehmookau wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] That's a pretty bold statement. I'm pro free speech, but believe it should have limits in a civilized society. I don't know what the answer is, or where the line should be but entirely unrestricted free speech isn't the infalable utopia that the US is conditioned to believe.

Shall we begin with some egregious examples and go from there? How is Nazi Germany doing? Or East Germany? Soviet Russia? Clearly there's an impossible hump of correlation/causation, but that doesn't mean we can't show at least part of the data set to be true - that you are far more likely to fail or be a horrible place to live. > entirely unrestricted free speech isn't the infalable utopia that the US is conditioned…

I agree with pretty much everything you say. However your last sentence is where the problem lies.

> and imbues its citizens with greater responsibility to practise that speech well.

Name me a western country that does this. Until it does, and until that type of education (critical and logical reasoning) is embedded in the fabric of our societies sensible limits on free speech (such as hate speech) are probably a reasonable compromise.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#124

Post by z5h »

vbtemp wrote: post #111
z5h wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than a reaction. Any agendaist who opposes science also makes it easier for other agendaists to oppose science. Their methodologies are essentially open source! I get in many arguements with friends and loved ones, not because I disagree with what their agenda represents, but because their methods are problematic. It’s very hard for someone not to take it as an attack of their values.

I may misunderstand, but I read it this way: The "pro-science" team is so obviously and transparently hypocritical and self-serving in their use of logic, become extremely defensive to any kind of criticism, and basically resort to name-calling ("they're stupid") anyone out side of the bubble. This basically sets the scene that anyone can make any logic work and no one really needs to really think anything through -…

“Scientists” and “pro-science” aren’t immune to forgetting the process. Which is why I clarified that the process is important. I agree with your conclusion. We choose our agenda and rationalize it. Something not too far off might be: pay attention to what one is naturally sensitive to, and feed one’s experience into a common data set, and feed that into a scientific process.

One can dream.

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#125

Post by joshspankit »

DougN7 wrote: post #122
orev wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of science. Science is a process , not a library of knowledge. You do the best you can with the info you have right now. Every time science changes, it means it’s getting better. Anything else is religion — wanting to have a single unchanging answer forever. That’s the appeal of religion, and in the short term it might make you feel better, but in the long term it cannot adapt…

The problem is science almost always (except maybe in physics??) pretends it has arrived at the ultimate truth this time. It’s easy to detect too: just watch for the phrase “but now we know...” It would help tremendously if new information was presented with some humility.

100% agreed. So much so that I was compelled to expand on it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26634484

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#126

Post by brigandish »

maxehmookau wrote: post #123
brigandish wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shall we begin with some egregious examples and go from there? How is Nazi Germany doing? Or East Germany? Soviet Russia? Clearly there's an impossible hump of correlation/causation, but that doesn't mean we can't show at least part of the data set to be true - that you are far more likely to fail or be a horrible place to live. > entirely unrestricted free speech isn't the infalable utopia that the US is conditioned…

I agree with pretty much everything you say. However your last sentence is where the problem lies. > and imbues its citizens with greater responsibility to practise that speech well. Name me a western country that does this. Until it does, and until that type of education (critical and logical reasoning) is embedded in the fabric of our societies sensible limits on free speech (such as hate speech) are probably a rea…

> Name me a western country that does this.

The more freedom "given", the more this is done, so the answer is all of them to greater or lesser degrees.

> until that type of education (critical and logical reasoning) is embedded in the fabric of our societies

Free speech is the embedding of critical thinking - do you see more critical thinking in societies riven with censorship and the suppression of speech? Are there less lies in societies that supress speech? There could be the same amount but there's definitely not less - why bother to suppress it in the first place if there's not a lie to protect?

> sensible limits on free speech (such as hate speech) are probably a reasonable compromise.

That's as close to a classic begging the question as you can get. The "sensible limits" and "reasonable compromise" are the same thing, and you're yet to show that hate speech is:

a) harmful to society

b) able to be defined any better than any dictator in history has managed

Re: The Antiscience Movement Is Escalating, Going Global and Killing Thousands

#127

Post by aww_dang »

keenreed wrote: post #19

Lysenko was scientist with stellar credibility, he was wrong, but that happens in science. Main problem was not "anti science", but turning science into religion. Unproven theories were implemented too fast, without enough tests and verifications.

His theories fit with the prevailing political ideology, therefore he was "right".
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