Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#121

Post by fxtentacle » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

fireball_blaze wrote: post #107

sodality2 wrote: post #2

Detailed, 6 step instructions on how to open a ballot and mark no? Thanks, amazon. This is almost as scummy as asking the city to change traffic lights so union organizers have a harder time talking to workers in between shifts. https://www.al.com/business/2021/02/jefferson-county-now-say...

Also reference Amazon's "Do it without dues" site: https://www.doitwithoutdues.com/

Wow, just wow. "Don’t buy that dinner, don’t buy those school supplies, don’t buy those gifts because you won’t have that almost $500 you paid in dues." It seems Amazon's main argument for why people shouldn't join a union is that Amazon's wages are so low that they cannot financially afford to.

That's almost like saying

"You're too poor to fight for your rights. Know your place."

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#122

Post by sodality2 » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

fireball_blaze wrote: post #107

sodality2 wrote: post #2

Detailed, 6 step instructions on how to open a ballot and mark no? Thanks, amazon. This is almost as scummy as asking the city to change traffic lights so union organizers have a harder time talking to workers in between shifts. https://www.al.com/business/2021/02/jefferson-county-now-say...

Also reference Amazon's "Do it without dues" site: https://www.doitwithoutdues.com/

I love this: "Make your voice heard! VOTE NOW AND VOTE NO." Those posters are all over the warehouses and it really feels like some 1984-esque parody.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#123

Post by pydry » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #33

Zealotux wrote: post #10

From a non-US point of view, this whole anti-union strategy from Amazon is somehow hilarious to witness on top of being sad. This kind of propaganda feels like its coming from another age, or dimension.

The depressing part is that this is actually an improvement over the violence and intimidation tactics of America's past. The US has never been a particularly union supportive country. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_th...

There's still time to return to the good old days when the boss called in a private air force to drop poison gas and bombs on striking workers.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#124

Post by pitaj » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #101

pitaj wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classifying gig workers as employees was a terrible idea. Not to mention the law that did so had so many exclusions it was ridiculous. Generally, we should be moving away from linking health insurance and other benefits to employment.

Have you taken a look at a public health insurance exchange recently? Buying your own health insurance is a terrible deal. I'm self-employed so have had to deal with this myself. Nothing solidifies deep disdain for any politician who doesn't support Medicare for All faster than looking at that webpage of health insurance plans.

There are a lot of reasons health insurance is way too expensive, but one of them is that many individuals are shielded from the true price because it's provided through their employer. This essentially removes downward price pressure from individuals.

Having insurance tied to employment is bad for workers. It makes switching jobs far more difficult and stressful, and makes losing your job that much more of an issue.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#125

Post by TOGoS » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #63

nabilhat wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All employers are making their case at all times, throughout hiring, with pay rate consistency or discrepancy, communication, management, and culture. Union votes are an outcome of the case an employer has already made for themselves. Once the vote's on, it's going to be very difficult to refute the case they've been making for years. Taking ownership of the failures that led to the conditions which created support f…

'lying about how unions work'. I've seen unions do the same. I was in a union where they promised to accomplish some things... didn't even try. Zero effort to do so, they simply chose not to. Amazon or any employer should still be able to make their case, even if they're wrong about some things ...

> 'lying about how unions work'. I've seen unions do the same. I was in a union where they promised to accomplish some things... didn't even try. Zero effort to do so, they simply chose not to.

Indeed, a lot of unions, especially the big, old ones in the US, have become lazy and more interested in making nice deals with management than with sticking up for the workers.

That said, the experience the workers get from the process of unionizing in the first place can give them the confidence they need to realize that the union bureaucracy isn't doing everything it can, and to pressure it to be better (by things like wildcat strikes, as the teachers in Virginia did very successfully a few years ago).

> Amazon or any employer should still be able to make their case, even if they're wrong about some things ...

I recommend re-reading the post you're responding to, which addressed that the first time you said it.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#126

Post by xphilter » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

soperj wrote: post #112

balabaster wrote: post #95

Full disclosure: I've always been anti-union for my own personal approach to life. I do see the value in unions, I've just always, to this point, been a go-it-alone-and-fight-my-own-battles kind of person. I don't want to be beholden to a union or their rules any more than I want to be beholden to an employer beyond my contractual obligations for which I'm paid. That said, people should take note of what happened whe…

So they were both reduced hours and beholden to their jobs with no time off?

How is that contradictory?

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#127

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #82

It's amazing how little HN readers understand about unions. A company is an organization that has some positive and some negative aspects. And believe it or not, a union is also an organization with some negative and positive aspects. The difference is, once you have a union in an organization its very hard to dislodge it no matter how dysfunctional it gets. I would suggest HN readers read about what UAW did in the a…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#128

Post by chrisseaton » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 4:30 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #116

chrisseaton wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, the employer never ever serves your interest. Their interests may align to mine even if they're doing it for their own benefit. And if the union's interests don't align to mine, then I'm better off without the union and with the employer. I don't think that's a hypothetical scenario, either. For example if the union wants to pay by seniority and the employer wants to pay by results, and I have lo…

Common experience is that performance reviews are bullshit and that scores are determined by warm fuzzies and management's political needs. Rachel has story after story. If you are politically astute, by all means don't join the union, but all this talk about "results" doesn't sound as if you are.

Do you not have the imagination to think of any situation where the majority of workers may want something that's not in your interests?

For example you morally support allowing new people to enter your field but the union is mostly comprised of more established people and they vote for credentialism to restrict supply.

Probably I'm very aligned with my employer on wanting to lower barriers to entry for the field!

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#129

Post by koolba » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 4:30 PM UTC

soperj wrote: post #112

balabaster wrote: post #95

Full disclosure: I've always been anti-union for my own personal approach to life. I do see the value in unions, I've just always, to this point, been a go-it-alone-and-fight-my-own-battles kind of person. I don't want to be beholden to a union or their rules any more than I want to be beholden to an employer beyond my contractual obligations for which I'm paid. That said, people should take note of what happened whe…

So they were both reduced hours and beholden to their jobs with no time off?

Easily possible. Show up for one hour, ever other hour, to perform task X. I pay you for four hours and you need to be on call for eight daily.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#130

Post by ahelwer » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 4:30 PM UTC

pitaj wrote: post #124

ahelwer wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you taken a look at a public health insurance exchange recently? Buying your own health insurance is a terrible deal. I'm self-employed so have had to deal with this myself. Nothing solidifies deep disdain for any politician who doesn't support Medicare for All faster than looking at that webpage of health insurance plans.

There are a lot of reasons health insurance is way too expensive, but one of them is that many individuals are shielded from the true price because it's provided through their employer. This essentially removes downward price pressure from individuals. Having insurance tied to employment is bad for workers. It makes switching jobs far more difficult and stressful, and makes losing your job that much more of an issue.

Yes, I agree having insurance tied to employment is bad for workers. The conclusion is "therefore M4A", not "therefore everyone should buy their own insurance on a public exchange, paying half as much as their rent". You can use COBRA to stay on your job's health insurance when you leave it, which is not notably more expensive than the public exchange plans.

The insurance market model for healthcare coverage is such a fractally broken failure that if you're still stuck on the stage of twisting some knobs and adjusting some levers in the hope that second-order market effects will improve things then there really is just nothing that will convince you to move on.