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So you've made a mistake and it's public

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Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#121

Post by Swizec »

joeryscript wrote: post #69
Swizec wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope for a new wave of optimistic idealism to swallow up tech again, bringing about a new era of amateurism. But with the professionalisation of even the free software community I have, I must admit, all but given up hope. This wave exists, we’re just old. Go talk to 16 year olds who are building virtual reality machine learning apps in their bedroom. Web is no longer the frontier. We’re old and out of touch. The…

The web is still the frontier, we're just interacting with it in new ways. Those VR meeting apps still need to connect to other computers, and if you get serious about machine learning the cloud is invaluable. Phone apps are also usually less local-friendly than desktop apps. Just because kids aren't using email or websites as much doesn't mean that they aren't using the internet more. Although personally, I wouldn't…

> Just because kids aren't using email or websites as much doesn't mean that they aren't using the internet more.

For sure, everything uses the internet. But not the web.

Point is most of us aren’t hanging out where the kids are hanging out. And we don’t have as much time to just hang out either.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#124

Post by aflag »

screye wrote: post #94

In the age of social media I would suggest a different approach to addressing public mistakes. 1. Go silent. > Complete public blackout. No denying, no accepting. The people want retribution, not justice. The media blackout is essential. 2. Reflect on it privately and quietly. 3. If not in violation of #1, apologize to the individual people/entity affected in private. 4. Once the mob dissipates, address the issue pub…

I think you're thinking about a very particular kind of mistake. However, for mistakes that are not hitting headlines, the original list from the article actually works. Specially for technical mistakes. I haven't been in a position that I had to go silent about my mistakes, which makes me happy. After admitting my mistakes I feel much lighter.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#125

Post by vlunkr »

khazhoux wrote: post #91
pugworthy wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also agree. I find both Twitter and Reddit to be on the most part delightful sources of information. I do have a certain self-made bubble in terms of who I follow, but it's a bubble full of creators, artists, and those that want to share what they've done in a positive way.

Exactly! Reddit's anonymity and the sheer scale of the site make bullying impossible (hard to imagine /u/subhumanbuttocks88 being victimized by /u/mandocalrissian).

Sure it makes targeted bullying impossible, but not general discrimination. There have been lots of subreddits removed for racism, sexism, etc.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#126

Post by aflag »

Supermancho wrote: post #63
tlogan wrote: post #11

This is why Trump is a genius. The step 0 should be: never ever admin the mistake. Since you will look bad even if you admit the mistake: it makes no difference.

Not sure why this is downvoted when its apropos. ^Trumps behavior is an effective counter example to the evolved list of rules, wikipedia puts forth as good autocratic process...insofar as wikipedia is more autocratic than communal by contribution. ^Obviously trump is not a genious

He was first elected with a minority and lost the reelection (which is uncommon in USA's history). Quoting the article:

> But isn't it true that organization/individual X made a mistake and didn't follow this process at all?

> Yes, it's true. And how did that work out?

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#127

Post by textgel »

I think a major point missing in amongst the discussion so far, and one that's causing a lot of crosstalk is whether you should even be apologising at all.

For example.

Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands which can then be framed as a perceived wrong. I think a lot of the kickback against apologising that we're seeing is coming from the numerous public examples of this tactic and the follow-up where any good-faith apology will be used to make a further example of the heretic.

If you are dealing with this kind of thing then the tactic of take-cover and let the storm pass seems sane (pearls before swine etc). But if you're actually dealing with a genuine person or group who you've genuinely wronged then a real apology is warranted.

One other thing I'd add; if you have wronged someone and you've apologised and made genuine efforts to make amends. While it is on the other person to decide whether or not they will accept/forgive, it is not a requirement to indefinitely debase/lower yourself in the pursuit of obtaining their forgiveness. You can make efforts up to a point but you are not required to destroy yourself until they grant it. If the situation is unsalvageable then that's what it is.

For studys sake on how this can get out of control, there are numerous examples of shitty parents holding a past wrong over a childs head indefinitely in the raised-by-narcissists subreddit which illustrate the tactic in use by malicious types there.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#128

Post by grayclhn »

mcguire wrote: post #113
samatman wrote: post #108

So this one time, our main customer database fell over. The primary key wasn't wide enough, we hit 2 billion rows, and everyone panicked. We had been working unwise hours for several days, and we got the fix together, and I made a mistake: I pushed it directly to production. Man, my boss was really mad; no one had been getting enough sleep and we were all stressed. I apologized profusely and said it would never happe…

Is there any point in addressing the "mistake" if no one has the need to take responsibility for it?

Yes, 100%. In the parent's example the system should be fixed so that no one can push directly to prod. Failing that, some sort of standardized checklist/process should be put in place. That's true regardless of who personally pushed something they shouldn't, and would be true even if no one ever made that "mistake."

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#129

Post by oarabbus_ »

textgel wrote: post #127

I think a major point missing in amongst the discussion so far, and one that's causing a lot of crosstalk is whether you should even be apologising at all. For example. Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands which can then be framed as a perceived wrong. I think a lot of the…

> Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands which can then be framed as a perceived wrong. I think a lot of the kickback against apologising that we're seeing is coming from the numerous public examples of this tactic and the follow-up where any good-faith apology will be used to make a further example of the heretic.

Well said. It's just a big witch hunt. If you don't apologize, you're in the wrong; if you do apologize, clearly you are a bad person because you were in the wrong, and the onus is now on you to demonstrate you're no longer that "bad" person. It's guilty until proven innocent and either way you lose.

Not to mention how many of these witch hunters have never said or done anything wrong themselves, ever? If you're a saint, then sure, by all means call out people for their wrong doings. But I have a hunch that 99% of progressives would be EXTREMELY uncomfortable if someone said they were going to pull every tweet, post, interview, statement, etc that they'd ever made and scrutinize them for harmful statements.

Finally, it's completely biased and partisan. The most famous example is Alyssa Milano, who really brought the Me Too movement to the spotlight, defending Joe Biden because he was "a good man". If you're not their friend, you don't get the same benefit of the doubt. The hypocrisy is unbearable.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#130

Post by screye »

aflag wrote: post #124
screye wrote: post #94

In the age of social media I would suggest a different approach to addressing public mistakes. 1. Go silent. > Complete public blackout. No denying, no accepting. The people want retribution, not justice. The media blackout is essential. 2. Reflect on it privately and quietly. 3. If not in violation of #1, apologize to the individual people/entity affected in private. 4. Once the mob dissipates, address the issue pub…

I think you're thinking about a very particular kind of mistake. However, for mistakes that are not hitting headlines, the original list from the article actually works. Specially for technical mistakes. I haven't been in a position that I had to go silent about my mistakes, which makes me happy. After admitting my mistakes I feel much lighter.

Yeah, the emphasis was on a public mistake and thus a public (external) reaction.

I agree that there are far more constructive ways of dealing with internal (family or company) errors.

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