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Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

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Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hunting is a practice as old as mankind itself. And in many parts of the world, it's a tradition that's been handed down from from parents to children even today. It also helps keep the various wild herds/packs from exploding in size, reducing the number of wild animals that die from starvation. (Bias disclaimer: I don't hunt, but I live in a state where I'm a minority)

The purpose of hunting is to acquire food. Wolves are not food animals, nor are they any longer competition for us. There's no evidence that wolf populations would explode if not managed by humans, so controlling them seems premature. There is plenty of evidence though that wolves help manage ruminant populations which do explode out of control without their natural predator, which just so happens to do a better job…

> The purpose of hunting is to acquire food.

Not solely. Humans have been hunting non-food targets for about as long as they've hunted food targets.

> There's no evidence that wolf populations would explode if not managed by humans

They (and other predaceous species) currently being managed by humans, just by the government and not hunters at large. The bureau of Fish, Wildlife, and Game has long set poison traps for the express purpose of killing wolves, coyotes, and wild dogs.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#122
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we even pay? There's no constitutional right to be able to leave your livestock basically unprotected on vast tracts of land where they're vulnerable to predators. I mean, if it makes it more palatable it's probably worth it to pay farmers... but I viscerally dislike the idea that any industry has the right to: 1. Destroy the environment for their convenience 2. Be indemnified by the government for their i…

Unless you are for the reintroduction of wolves where you live your opinion on this is selfish. Too many wealthy urbanites and subutbanites have a not-in-my-backyard mentality about wolves.

I live in a rural area with lots of coyotes, and I'd welcome a return of wolves to deal with the over-abundance of deer.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#123
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should pay... the price of cows killed by wolves should be priced in to the sales price of beef, which is way too cheap right now as it is. This is a super simple calculation.

Where is the averaging component in that? If some ranchers affected more by wolves and raise their prices accordingly, they become less competitive.

That's rather the point of a market economy, and this is a small example of the problems with one: it's difficult to face up to powerful industries to force them to price in externalities.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#124
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we even pay? There's no constitutional right to be able to leave your livestock basically unprotected on vast tracts of land where they're vulnerable to predators. The argument would go: the government does not want the rancher to actually protect his cattle because that would involve shooting the wolves. That's why the wolves on the list in the first place. If don't want cattle put in a barn all day, then…

That argument presupposes the right of the farmer to do whatever they want to protect their cattle, which was what I was objecting too.

This ends with "Let's not have ranchers", which is an outcome I'd agree with.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100,000 years of human history would disagree on your pathology diagnosis. Humans have been killing for sport, for food, and for war, since before we were humans. We are literally the best hunters in the known universe. Its not a pathology.

By what metric are we the best hunters? I'm no animal expert, but eagles, sharks, lions, etc. seem pretty good it!

Humans could hunt any of them to extinction. The reverse could not occur.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#126
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway we pay ranchers for sheep which are taken by wolves. They still really hate wolves. More sheep are taken by wolverines, lynx and bears yet the ranches are still keen on full extermination of the wolf population.

It's not unreasonable. Wolves are among the few predators that can and will attack humans . That the wolves, themselves, now have a deep-set fear of humanity and would only dare to do so if they're desperate and starving... is a distant second to that same deep-set cultural fear of wolves. Unpopular Opinion Time: The ecosystem damage from not having apex predators is large enough that it might be worth a few human li…

"Solutions" like this are how we destroyed Yellowstone the first time, and why deer now run rampant all over the US, literally eroding forests from excessive grazing. A naive assumption about a complex system has knock-on effects that destroy the entire ecosystem.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#127
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway we pay ranchers for sheep which are taken by wolves. They still really hate wolves. More sheep are taken by wolverines, lynx and bears yet the ranches are still keen on full extermination of the wolf population.

It's not unreasonable. Wolves are among the few predators that can and will attack humans . That the wolves, themselves, now have a deep-set fear of humanity and would only dare to do so if they're desperate and starving... is a distant second to that same deep-set cultural fear of wolves. Unpopular Opinion Time: The ecosystem damage from not having apex predators is large enough that it might be worth a few human li…

Is there a citation for a single attack on a human? I'd looked before, some years back, and was unable to find any.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#128
Copying from an old comment of mine:

"As someone who grew up in a wolf reintro zone I have a few comments and opinions to help others have more productive conversations.

First, not all wolf reintro's are the same. Each ecosystem is different and the scientific justifications need to be done for each, and the papers for one do not necessarily apply to the other. The Yellowstone program may have been a success, but other places are not Yellowstone, and it is a mistake to use it as a way to handwave away criticisms. Also, sometimes the justifications are pretty weak, and could easily be made up with by increase in hunting tags or adjustment of hunting time windows and area restrictions.

Second, there are jurisdictional and public control issues at the heart of the matter. There are people who actually have to live in these areas and they are major changes. I strongly dislike the attitude of some that locals should have no say. The people in our area voted against the reintro program and it was done anyway, with the governor saying "I don't care what the people want, the reintro program is happening". That is a problem. I have also seen the effects of fresh Forest Department/BLM phd types ignore the locals wisdom and advice and pay the price for it, and the same "We know better than you back country bumpkin" condescension tends to be at play in the reintro programs. These things have real consequences. For example, as a kid my grampa who was a logger in the area in the 70's and many other loggers were saying the Forest Service needed to let the loggers thin the forests out and to do more control burns. I being young thought the old loggers were just old-fashioned and the PhD's knew what they were doing, until reality happened. The holier than though attitude of the credentialed people prevailed, then the pine beetle infestation hit, and within a decade we had two ~500,000 acre forest fires that the forests are still recovering from.

Third, there are often claims that wolves never attack humans, and those claims are blatantly false or are using very carefully selected statistics (North America only, etc) to craft a narrative. Beyond that, it vastly changes the safety profile of being in the forests, in a way that discourages people from experiencing it. Many locals from my area have posited that this is an intentional side-effect. Even more so when the rumors of a grizzly reintro program started floating around (I don't know if these are just rumors, but who can blame the locals for being afraid of an unelected unaccountable bureaucracy who already ignores them from doing something else against their wishes). We used to be able to only have to worry about bears or mountain lions, who both have pretty easily avoided confrontational profiles, but now locals don't go anywhere without being armed.

Fourth, the dismissal of the cattle ranchers is far overrated. Cattle ranching, especially in this day in age, is a science in itself, and in the forest is a vital part of forest maintenance. Silviopasture/agroforestry is also often studied by the kids of the old ranchers who then come back and apply that knowledge. Thoughts of the ranchers as dumb hicks is a foolish and insulting stereotype. Not only that, but often the forest service and BLM are underfunded and undermanned, and many of the ranchers who are paying public land leases do a good job assisting in maintaining the forest, and unlike the new kid who just got shipped in from across the country after getting a degree, they live there and have passed down local knowledge for decades if not longer.

I know it's easy to see something like a wolf reintro program and assume it's a great thing and just jump on the bandwagon, but maybe a perspective from someone who grew up in one and have heard out the locals on the issues might help color your view on the topic a bit.

Otherwise you just end up with a bunch of locals that around the campfire say "It's all about the three S's... shoot, shovel, and shhhhh"."

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#129
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway we pay ranchers for sheep which are taken by wolves. They still really hate wolves. More sheep are taken by wolverines, lynx and bears yet the ranches are still keen on full extermination of the wolf population.

It's not unreasonable. Wolves are among the few predators that can and will attack humans . That the wolves, themselves, now have a deep-set fear of humanity and would only dare to do so if they're desperate and starving... is a distant second to that same deep-set cultural fear of wolves. Unpopular Opinion Time: The ecosystem damage from not having apex predators is large enough that it might be worth a few human li…

[deleted]

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#130
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mailed in my ballot, voting for the first time ever this year! Voted for President Trump! Would encourage everyone else to as well, it's a good feeling to exercise rights that many in the world unfortunately do not have.

Thanks for voting! Edit: if you downvoted this comment, you're the problem.

Well, it is pretty off topic for this discussion.
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