John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future' • Hacker News Board

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#121

Post by antepodius » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

bsenftner wrote: post #108

koboll wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

Death is relief from observing the continual descent into madness for the human race. Ever wonder why smart but unacclaimed elders are so bitter? We've spent our lives watching the stupid evil win over the smart evil, and the good never having a chance. I'll be glad when I'm dead, if I could be glad. To not watch the human race destroy itself is all the heaven I expect.

Why are you sticking around, then?

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#122

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #79

tomgp wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah John Gray and Steven Pinker exist at opposite ends of the spectrum on this one (eg https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/mar/13/john-gray-stev... ). I think both perspectives are valuable

Except Pinker's perspective is supported by data.

[deleted]

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#123

Post by antepodius » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 2:45 PM UTC

yowlingcat wrote: post #101

koboll wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

Counterpoint: Hayflick limit [1]. Of course, the humble lobster, jellyfish and hydra [2] (along with other animals) don't seem to undergo senescence but IMO the jury is still out on whether hominids are biologically amenable to such feats of genetic engineering. The other question besides whether such a thing is possible is whether it is desirable. Depending on one's viewpoint, one could look at immortal humans as a…

Why does it matter if everyone else is immortal and invulnerable?

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#124

Post by tomgp » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 2:45 PM UTC

unityByFreedom wrote: post #73

tomgp wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re thinking of the other John Gray

Haha you're right! I did not know there were two. Pretty sure the Mars author is the better known of the two.

Possibly, though I only know the Mars/Venus guy because Amazon used to recommend those books based on the fact that is bought ‘Straw Dogs’

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#125

Post by antepodius » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #98

airstrike wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you didn't exist you wouldn't have preferences. So if my living self prefers to live and my dead self has no preference, on average I prefer living over dying

Dying is not the opposite of living, it's its consequence and requirement (so far). If you prefer living, you also prefer dying. It's also the inverse to being born. Its opposite would be not living (and not being born, and not dying).

I'd say it's more that death is a price people would be willing to pay in return for getting to live for some number of years in the absence of any better options (like not dying).

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#126

Post by yowlingcat » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

antepodius wrote: post #123

yowlingcat wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: Hayflick limit [1]. Of course, the humble lobster, jellyfish and hydra [2] (along with other animals) don't seem to undergo senescence but IMO the jury is still out on whether hominids are biologically amenable to such feats of genetic engineering. The other question besides whether such a thing is possible is whether it is desirable. Depending on one's viewpoint, one could look at immortal humans as a…

Why does it matter if everyone else is immortal and invulnerable?

Great question. IMO, it's because it doesn't prevent the counterparty from torturing everyone else in perpetuity. The world risks turning into a Dantean inferno.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#127

Post by antepodius » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

6stringmerc wrote: post #30

theonemind wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All other disgusting factors aside, human meat must have some ridiculous concentration of all kinds of harmful things like mercury and all kinds of bizarre things.

YC 2021 - Soylent Human Hummus - Do vegans taste better than omnivores? - ArsTechnica

Grain-fed free-range vegans, ethically bow-hunted, marbled meat

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#128

Post by antepodius » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

yowlingcat wrote: post #126

antepodius wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it matter if everyone else is immortal and invulnerable?

Great question. IMO, it's because it doesn't prevent the counterparty from torturing everyone else in perpetuity. The world risks turning into a Dantean inferno.

Are you talking about the counterparty taking 'physical' people hostage and torturing them? Because that sort of runs counter to 'everyone is invulnerable and immortal'.

Or about them running sentient hell-simulations for fun because they're a sadist? In which case, yes, that is a concern. If you knew it was going on, you could presumably try countermeasures (up to and including threatening to run simulations that decrease the sadist's utility function, if you know it). Otherwise, maybe engage in trades with other people where you refuse to cooperate with someone unless you both audit each other's hardware?

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#129

Post by rv-de » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #94

All beings so far have created something beyond themselves. Do you want to be the ebb of that great tide, and revert back to the beast rather than overcome mankind? What is the ape to a man? A laughing-stock, a thing of shame. And just so shall a man be to the Overman: a laughing-stock, a thing of shame. You have evolved from worm to man, but much within you is still worm. Once you were apes, yet even now man is more…

nietzsche was an idiot ...

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#130

Post by tasty_freeze » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 3:43 PM UTC

beams wrote: post #41

tasty_freeze wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love ice cream. But if I had to eat a billion gallons of it, it would lose its appeal. Life is like that too: if we had it in infinite supply, it wouldn't have much value. If I could extend my life by 50 years of good health I might take that offer. If I had to extend it by 500 years, I'm pretty sure I'd decline. If I had to extend it 5000 years I'd certainly say no. 5M years of existence would be torture. When peo…

You say you’d decline 5m years of life. But have you been in love? How would your answer change if he/she was ready to live 5m years with you?

Yes, multiple times. I'm 25 years married and we still have a great relationship. You have a very romantic notion of love if you think it could last even 5000 years.