Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you • Hacker News Board

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#121

Post by perl4ever » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 8:52 PM UTC

LorenPechtel wrote: post #79

perl4ever wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While we're at it, maybe we could enforce easier access to credit information. One report per year with no credit score is absurdly restrictive.

It was reasonable at the time it was put into place. It's now so much easier to deal with information, reform is needed but it's not going to happen unless the Democrats are in control. What I would like to see is a rule that if a company collects data for more than in-house use (so it doesn't apply to a company who simply has records of it's customers) they must make a reasonable effort to notify you and allow you t…

>It was reasonable at the time it was put into place

I don't think so. It's only been around for about 15 years or so. Internet infrastructure wasn't as advanced then, but neither were there as many people who would've used it.

The only reason I can see for the state of things is that the credit bureaus wanted to nickel-and-dime people for credit monitoring, and because they could water down the regulations, they did.

Another thing that was sorely needed was to make the domain a .gov or something other than a .com to prevent so many imposters.

And I just now read on Wikipedia a list of companies excluded from the requirements, like ChexSystems.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#122

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 8:54 PM UTC

njarboe wrote: post #108

lotsofpulp wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can check your credit report for free, as required by law, but nobody is required to tell you your credit score. You can also basically just pay to remove many things from your credit report. There is no “the credit score”. Any lender is free to use whatever scoring algorithm they like. And they do. Some lenders may choose to use certain scores for certain things, but underwriting has no obligation to use one s…

Credit reporting agencies and financial institutions commit fraud all the time. They call it identity theft so that you think it is your fault instead of their fault. No one would care about a bank giving a loan to a person that was impersonating them except for the fact that the bank (credit card, mattress store, car dealership, etc) commits fraud and reports to the credit agency that you have defaulted on your loan…

I agree that the consequences of identity theft should fall on the financial institutions and credit reporting agencies.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#123

Post by Judgmentality » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:05 PM UTC

shuntress wrote: post #87

annoyingnoob wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They recovered their costs. I already pay for the service. Tracking is just another excuse to raise rates, which as you note is the goal (bring money in, don't let it out). When rates have nothing to do with liability is it really insurance? To quote wikipedia: If the likelihood of an insured event is so high, or the cost of the event so large, that the resulting premium is large relative to the amount of protection…

You pay either way. It's not about covering costs to provide a needed service. That would be a public service This is a private company looking for profit. They want to raise your rates.

> This is a private company looking for profit. They want to raise your rates.

And this is the problem with insurance being mandatory. Their business model is to force everyone to buy an expensive subscription, and then increase costs every time everyone actually uses their service in order to recoup costs.

Yes, I am oversimplifying, but holy fuck do I hate insurance companies since I have never gotten one to pay out a claim without suing first.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#124

Post by pxeboot » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:18 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #98

cactus2093 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The credit system in the US is already a pretty horrific version of this, and nobody really seems to care and it’s been like this for decades. And it’s not even just used for credit anymore, renting an apartment now usually requires a credit check. I had thought credit karma and similar services were at least adding transparency to the industry but was recently in for a rude awakening when trying to get preapproval f…

> You can check your credit report for free, as required by law, but nobody is required to tell you your credit score. You can also basically just pay to remove many things from your credit report. There is no “the credit score”. Any lender is free to use whatever scoring algorithm they like. And they do. Some lenders may choose to use certain scores for certain things, but underwriting has no obligation to use one s…

> And what is your source for claiming you can pay to get things removed from credit score?

It is definitely possible to do a "pay for delete" to have negative info removed from a credit report in exchange for payment.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#125

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

pxeboot wrote: post #124

lotsofpulp wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can check your credit report for free, as required by law, but nobody is required to tell you your credit score. You can also basically just pay to remove many things from your credit report. There is no “the credit score”. Any lender is free to use whatever scoring algorithm they like. And they do. Some lenders may choose to use certain scores for certain things, but underwriting has no obligation to use one s…

> And what is your source for claiming you can pay to get things removed from credit score? It is definitely possible to do a "pay for delete" to have negative info removed from a credit report in exchange for payment.

It’s not the credit reporting agency that’s doing it though, it’s the lender.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/pay-for-delete

I don’t see what the problem is if the owner of the debt agrees to erase the debt.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#126

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

awslattery wrote: post #117

lotsofpulp wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can check your credit report for free, as required by law, but nobody is required to tell you your credit score. You can also basically just pay to remove many things from your credit report. There is no “the credit score”. Any lender is free to use whatever scoring algorithm they like. And they do. Some lenders may choose to use certain scores for certain things, but underwriting has no obligation to use one s…

"Pay for delete" in collections reported has transitioned from a rarity, to most RMA agencies offering it directly in their initial letter and websites. None of the credit bureaus have pushed against this publicly in the last 3 years of it being more widely adopted.

If the owner of the debt accepts a lower cash payment in exchange for canceling the debt, I don’t see how that’s a problem for the public. It’s a problem for lenders, but seems like they’ve caught onto it: https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/pay-for-delete

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#127

Post by vasili111 » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 10:00 PM UTC

OK. Now lets look from another perspective. Now when we know that, how to make system score us high? How to show system what it scores as high and hide what it scores as low? How to benefit from that system?

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#128

Post by gruez » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 10:04 PM UTC

njarboe wrote: post #108

lotsofpulp wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can check your credit report for free, as required by law, but nobody is required to tell you your credit score. You can also basically just pay to remove many things from your credit report. There is no “the credit score”. Any lender is free to use whatever scoring algorithm they like. And they do. Some lenders may choose to use certain scores for certain things, but underwriting has no obligation to use one s…

Credit reporting agencies and financial institutions commit fraud all the time. They call it identity theft so that you think it is your fault instead of their fault. No one would care about a bank giving a loan to a person that was impersonating them except for the fact that the bank (credit card, mattress store, car dealership, etc) commits fraud and reports to the credit agency that you have defaulted on your loan…

>Credit reporting agencies and financial institutions commit fraud all the time. They call it identity theft so that you think it is your fault instead of their fault. No one would care about a bank giving a loan to a person that was impersonating them except for the fact that the bank (credit card, mattress store, car dealership, etc) commits fraud and reports to the credit agency that you have defaulted on your loan when you have not.

That's literally what not fraud is.

>In law, fraud is intentional deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain, or to deprive a victim of a legal right

If some guy walks into a bank and claim they're you and they believe it, the banks aren't gaining anything. If anything, they lost money. Wrongly reporting the default to the CRAs also doesn't benefit them either; it's not like they compensate the banks based on how many default reports they send in. Finally, it's missing the "intentional" part. Lax security practices are negligence at best.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#129

Post by chordalkeyboard » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 10:06 PM UTC

annoyingnoob wrote: post #91

shuntress wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pay either way. It's not about covering costs to provide a needed service. That would be a public service This is a private company looking for profit. They want to raise your rates.

What you are talking about would no longer be considered insurance. > the accounting profession formally recognizes in financial accounting standards, the premium cannot be so large that there is not a reasonable chance of a significant loss to the insurer The vast majority of automobiles do not hold their value, they depreciate over time. If I've had my car for say 5 years and I've paid the premiums for 5 years, I m…

The payout is the risk you transferred to the insurance company. You’re not “supposed” to get all your premiums back because then why would anyone start an insurance company? Its not a bank account, its more like a lottery ticket. The insurer assumes risk of covering an accident in exchange for the guaranteed income of your monthly premiums. In return you exchange a fixed regular payment for protection against an unlikely event. In order for this arrangment to work, the insurer must make a profit.

You might understand this but many people today do not, which is why they expect medical insurance to cover 100% probability events like an annual checkup with the primary care physician.

Re: Data isn't just being collected from your phone, it's being used to score you

#130

Post by gruez » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 10:07 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #118

cactus2093 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The credit system in the US is already a pretty horrific version of this, and nobody really seems to care and it’s been like this for decades. And it’s not even just used for credit anymore, renting an apartment now usually requires a credit check. I had thought credit karma and similar services were at least adding transparency to the industry but was recently in for a rude awakening when trying to get preapproval f…

>> And it’s not even just used for credit anymore, renting an apartment now usually requires a credit check. Renting an apartment is credit, I am not sure why you view it has something other than credit? The owner of the property is loaning (credit) the use of their property to you for X amount of time in exchange for N amount of dollars, payable over monthly installments How is that not credit? A better example is e…

>Renting an apartment is credit, I am not sure why you view it has something other than credit?

>The owner of the property is loaning (credit) the use of their property to you for X amount of time in exchange for N amount of dollars, payable over monthly installments

Not really. In most places you have to pay first and last month's rent, which means you're paying for the service before it's rendered. Therefore they're not extending credit, as you have already paid for the service in advance.