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Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

latimes.com

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Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#121

Post by dang »

hexo wrote: post #105
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #78

> “Estrogen is not a treatment for ODD. I can’t be more emphatic about that,” McGough said. “You won’t find a reference anywhere that supports the use of estrogen for ODD.” Well certainly the doctor got this theory from someplace. They believed this young man would be better behaved if he had less testosterone and more estrogen, and went ahead with a treatment against scientific evidence (and ethics quite frankly). S…

(deleting because of not funny unwise comment)

If you post like this here again we will ban you. Adding a nationalistic flamewar to what is already a gender flamewar is either arson or criminal negligence.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#122

Post by dang »

justaguyhere wrote: post #74
fortran77 wrote: post #56

It's terrible how the lives of young men don't matter.

Not just young men, all men I suppose. Breast cancer receives tons of attention and money compared to testicular cancer. Men's rights movements are made fun of. Sexual assaults on men is funny while the same on women is horrifying. Casually making jokes about it in movies is okay, as long as the victim is male. etc etc.

Please don't start up tedious flamewar tropes here.

If there's to be a substantive conversation about a story like the OP, it needs to stay rooted in specifics, not slide off into tired talking points and angry arguments.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#123

Post by dvtrn »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #110
stupidcar wrote: post #14

This reads like the plot of a dystopian young adult sci-fi novel. Children who resist authority being diagnosed with a "behavioural disorder" and being forcibly given hormones by an evil doctor. Yet apparently this is the reality of modern society.

> Yet apparently this is the reality of modern society. This news article exists because it’s an exception, not the rule. Don’t confuse this with normal or common treatment. Even one case is too many, obviously, but it’s not the norm.

Don’t confuse this with normal or common treatment

What are these normal treatments? Pharmaceuticals like Ritalin and Adderall? Asking because I don’t know not that I’m taking this anywhere, but when people talk about behavioral control of children acting out of line with some kind of “norm”, I’m uneducated as to what the norm is or what the status quo for this is.

What I do know (via anecdotes of having sister who works in childhood behavioral science), medicating kids was for a long time the norm and is being harshly critiqued and challenge more recently, but I admit not really bothering to look into this much further.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#124

Post by floatingatoll »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #78

> “Estrogen is not a treatment for ODD. I can’t be more emphatic about that,” McGough said. “You won’t find a reference anywhere that supports the use of estrogen for ODD.” Well certainly the doctor got this theory from someplace. They believed this young man would be better behaved if he had less testosterone and more estrogen, and went ahead with a treatment against scientific evidence (and ethics quite frankly). S…

Your unspoken assumption is that "treatment" was a primary goal at all. Here, I would consider if "treatment" is instead the weapon of choice used in service of the actual goal: to brutalize one person so severely that it causes others to sit silently in fear, rather than stand up and speak out.

"This boy was super aggressive towards me, a doctor! so I must punish him for that transgression against me, a doctor! and ensure that I make an example of him! I have just the thing, I'll humiliate him by making him into a girl! I'll lose my license, but it's worth it because I'll be remembered forever as the boogeyman in every juvey in the country!"

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#125

Post by dang »

helixhelix wrote: post #79
newacct583 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you enlighten me as to what you think my agenda is? For myself, I'm pretty sure I posted that comment so people who might otherwise like to frequent HN doesn't get the idea that the median poster here is a transphobe. Obviously I might be wrong about that, but someone needs to put in the effort.

If you think people are either extremely transphobic or extremely transphillic, that makes you immature. Absolutism is a childish thought trait.

We've banned this account for ideological flamewar and personal attack.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#126

Post by rubber_duck »

newacct583 wrote: post #97
rubber_duck wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a coach was doping teen athletes with test without their knowledge or coercing them in to it, hell even misleading them to do it, I'm pretty sure I would expect jail time, assault charges etc. And you would probably be in favour as well. But because attacking this feels like an attack on your political narrative you feel the need to spin it inside of it and downplay this. And don't even try the "this is a medical…

I think I'd support jail time for this abuse, FWIW (to be fair I've only read the one article). I'm reacting to the gendered reasoning among the poster above. It's bad because it's an unnecessary medical process used (apparently) as a punishment, not because it stole his manhood or whatever. I'm fine if you're super upset. But if you're MORE upset because of the gendering interaction, that's wrong. The poster above c…

It depends on the motivation, if it was ideologically motivated I would be outraged at the ideology that lead to it and people justifying it, just like I would be outraged at state of high school sports that lead to a coach doing this and people defending that.

But I sort of agree, there is no proof this is ideological (in fact it sounds just as likely that the doctor was experimenting), the other guy is spinning it his way as well - I think you can say that without the need to defend/downplay the action.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#127

Post by ralmidani »

In the US, the criminal justice system is not concerned primarily with reforming criminals or deterring future crimes. It’s concerned mostly with making the lives of people convicted or accused of crimes (many of whom are innocent or otherwise had extenuating circumstances) absolutely miserable, retribution taken to the extreme (tangentially, I’m not against retribution in principle, but don’t think it should always be the only reason to punish someone). And any sort of “non-compliance” while retribution is being exacted leads to the misery being dialed up. Is there any civilized country other than the US where long prison terms in sadistic conditions is considered “normal”?

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#128

Post by tyho »

TomJansen wrote: post #114
tyho wrote: post #102

The following is not a comment on this particular incident and is far outside the overton window. Men, specifically young men, commit the overwhelming majority of violent crime. This is at a great cost to society. The victims suffer as a direct result of the crimes, the perpetrators suffer as a result of their necessary detention to protect the wider public, and detention itself is expensive. Would it be so terrible…

Yes, this is horrible and no, from a utilitarian perspective this does not make sense. You are basically argueing for chemical castration. This is exactly the kind of medicalization attitude which is very dangerous. The correct way isn't pumping our youth full with hormones or other chemicals, but giving them sufficient therapy and care and by ensuring that their environment in jail accommodates for a safe return int…

Just to be abundantly clear I think this is a terrible idea. But I'd like to see it dispassionately debated on its merits. One could make the argument that "sufficient therapy" is reminiscent of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. I do not know of any methods that can reliably work with the most violent of offenders. Chemical castration is evil, but so is life imprisonment. Which is lesser? Does it matter if it were a choice?

I'm prepared to burn some more karma on this.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#129

Post by jml7c5 »

fphhotchips wrote: post #84
newacct583 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was injected with non-indicated contradictory sex hormones during adolescence and under duress; I don't know why you're downplaying this I'm not downplaying this at all. It's you who are boosting your interpretation because of "assault on the testicles", "mental destruction", "sex hormone", and other things that tell me what you're really upset about is his masculinity and not his well being. No, I don't think t…

This is worse precisely because of the reasons transphobia is bad. This poor boy has been forced - by a medical professional, no less - into a place on the gender plane that is different to the one that he identifies as. The psychological effects of that are horrifying , and the physiological effects are potentially permanent. There's nothing wrong with being trans and going through HRT so long as you do it with full…

>This poor boy has been forced - by a medical professional, no less - into a place on the gender plane that is different to the one that he identifies as.

Where are you getting this intent from? I don't see anything in the article to suggest this was the doctor's goal.

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