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Tesla Ventilator

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Re: Tesla Ventilator

#121

Post by HideousKojima »

rumanator wrote: post #106
heleninboodler wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't ensure that with an all nighter and a 3D printer. Does the video linked look like the result of "an all nighter and a 3D printer" to you?

> Does the video linked look like the result of "an all nighter and a 3D printer" to you? As you might understand from the language used and your failure to see a 3D printer, my description is what you may describe as a hyperbole. But still, to put it in terms you might better understand, why do you think that medical devices take years to design and develop and get to the market? There are more things to it other th…

>But still, to put it in terms you might better understand, why do you think that medical devices take years to design and develop and get to the market?

Because of insane regulatory hurdles, and a refusal to adopt standards accepted by other nations' comparable regulatory agencies? See, for example, KN95 masks. Or for a non-coronavirus example, look at how slow the FDA has been to approve SLIT immunotherapy methods for allergy treatment, despite European agencies having approved them for decades. Which results in Americans seeking allergy immunotherapy to either get off-label prescriptions for SLIT therapy, or they have to get the much more expensive injections that require multiple visits a week to a doctor's office and supervision by trained (and therefore expensive) professionals.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#122

Post by bhupy »

product50 wrote: post #73
pdq wrote: post #27

Yes, this is an impressive amount of work done in a few weeks by a small team at Tesla. However, medical devices, especially for life support systems, are not a Hackathon project. These devices breathe air into patients lungs. They need to be manufactured in clean room conditions, with medical grade parts, not plumbing parts from a big box store. They must be designed and tested to ISO specifications. If this fails,…

I knew someone at Hacker News will make a comment like this. Hacker News is cynicism at its finest. "I can't imagine any hospital or doctor careless enough to connect one of these to a patient, even in this current emergency." This is utter BS. Imagine that you are in a situation where you are trying to ration lives by selecting who gets access to a ventilator. Won't you not use this device then too? Please, for god'…

Agree with you, but just one small nit pick is that Mahindra (Indian car manufacturer) is now making ventilators too, and Anand Mahindra (CEO) has been exchanging tweets with Elon.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#123

Post by vernie »

heleninboodler wrote: post #88
rumanator wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This effort they're doing really doesn't seem like they're treating it like a "Hackathon" project. They're putting real engineering resources behind it. Engineers can and do hackathon work, but real engineering work is way more about verification and validation than hacking stuff together. Products need to ensure that they will work reliably within all operational limits. You don't ensure that with an all nighter a…

> You don't ensure that with an all nighter and a 3D printer. Does the video linked look like the result of "an all nighter and a 3D printer" to you?

Yea, it does, right down to the graph visualization that doesn't fill the screen.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#124

Post by heleninboodler »

rumanator wrote: post #106
heleninboodler wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't ensure that with an all nighter and a 3D printer. Does the video linked look like the result of "an all nighter and a 3D printer" to you?

> Does the video linked look like the result of "an all nighter and a 3D printer" to you? As you might understand from the language used and your failure to see a 3D printer, my description is what you may describe as a hyperbole. But still, to put it in terms you might better understand, why do you think that medical devices take years to design and develop and get to the market? There are more things to it other th…

This sounds a little like an argument that it's simply impossible to get this done any faster, so we shouldn't try.

I mean, I like to think we have clear enough standards for reliability and testing that if we manage to perform some excellent engineering and meet all of those standards in record time, and the federal government is willing to expedite the approval red tape, there's no technical reason we shouldn't be able to get it done a lot faster than what is typical without sacrificing safety.

Or put another way: I really hope the safety of our existing medical devices isn't simply based on the process being slow.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#125

Post by [deleted] »

natch wrote: post #80
pdq wrote: post #27

Yes, this is an impressive amount of work done in a few weeks by a small team at Tesla. However, medical devices, especially for life support systems, are not a Hackathon project. These devices breathe air into patients lungs. They need to be manufactured in clean room conditions, with medical grade parts, not plumbing parts from a big box store. They must be designed and tested to ISO specifications. If this fails,…

So discouraging to see such low quality and cynical comments at the top level here. It's been made very clear over the weeks here on HN how Tesla and SpaceX between them, with their overlapping engineering resources (Elon, for example) have deep experience with life support systems, at a level approved by NASA even. To diss their work as a hackathon project is pretty low. It's also been widely discussed that this cri…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#126

Post by gamblor956 »

bdamm wrote: post #86
semi-extrinsic wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, we had a (world renowned) medical company where I live annouce an emergency ventilator design, complete with functioning prototype. The design was quickly torn apart in public by doctors working on actual Covid-19 patients (the caseload is still manageable here). The device was then shelved. If a well-known medical company can produce something that doctors say is essentially worse than doing nothing, due t…

Well, except there's a big issue here, which is that Tesla can really only manufacture from parts that Tesla has, unless there are clear parts availability that can be quickly ramped up and delivered to the specific factories and in the form those factories can use.

Which is why the medical community basically shrugged at Tesla's PR pronouncement about being the white knight that will save everyone with their DIY ventilators built from car parts that might arrive sometime within 18 months if they stick to the normal Tesla production schedule.

And that was before Tesla mixed up BiPAP machines with actual ventilators...

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#127

Post by gamblor956 »

mcguire wrote: post #111
product50 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DO you realize that these are car manufacturing companies trying to figure out how they can build ventilators. To build based on existing know-how will likely be incredibly expensive and prohibitive. As such, it is reasonably to expect them build these ventilators based on the realities of their current supply chain, technology, factory capabilities etc. It is so surprising that I have to explain this to a tech audie…

How is starting over from scratch less expensive?

Given the time to explore cheaper parts, manufacturing processes, etc., starting over can always result in a cheaper device.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#128

Post by [deleted] »

baybal2 wrote: post #77
bonestamp2 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I should have been more clear and concise. Why do they want to limit exports from certified companies?

> Why do they want to limit exports from certified companies? Put some thought to it. It's China, the government here doesn't need to resort to any legal tricks to crack down on anything, especially now. The sentiment that exports are being banned for fear of faulty tests being sent to export customers? One must be joking. That's, again, China, a country not having any problem with that. On other hand, exploiting thi…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#129

Post by gok »

The FDA would take years to approve a new ventilator that was an old one with a new paint color. A new design like this would probably be approved for use in US hospitals around 2025 if they're lucky.

Might be useful sooner in a country with a more functional administrative state.

Re: Tesla Ventilator

#130

Post by gamblor956 »

tashoecraft wrote: post #32
pdq wrote: post #27

Yes, this is an impressive amount of work done in a few weeks by a small team at Tesla. However, medical devices, especially for life support systems, are not a Hackathon project. These devices breathe air into patients lungs. They need to be manufactured in clean room conditions, with medical grade parts, not plumbing parts from a big box store. They must be designed and tested to ISO specifications. If this fails,…

How much of all of that clean room conditions is truly necessary? I ask not to be combative or to just support Tesla, but I know the US has a habit of only accepting the absolute best medical equipment, whereas hospitals make do with good but not great equipment and are able to save lives and save money. There is a risk, but there is also the issue of peopling dying because of no ventilator. So what's better? Having…

If Tesla were to just build existing ventilator designs, like Medtronic's Open Ventilator, Tesla wouldn't be getting any criticism from anyone. That would be a truly useful thing to do in this situation. For example, nobody is criticizing Tesla's partnership with Medtronic to build the solenoids that are supply-constraining Medtronic's Western production of ventilators.

But Tesla wasting time and money on a new ventilator that won't go into production during this crisis is not praise-worthy, especially considering that what they have still needs weeks of work to make it usable in a clinical setting even if they wanted to start production immediately. It's just like the submarine they built for the Thai cave crisis. Lots of overthinking and self-praise going into something that ultimately couldn't be used by the people it was intended for.

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