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Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

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Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#121

Post by randomsearch »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #21
Mvandenbergh wrote: post #9

What we really need is a simple ventilator, designed by manufacturers who already know how to design and build these and produced at enormous scale using a shadow factory system similar to that developed in world war 2. In this model, the original manufacturer steps in to guide production, carry out quality control and probably supply the control electronics and software. All physical objects on which our civilisatio…

Devil's advocate: Why would a manufacturer consider damaging what is a potential mega cash cow? I read earlier that ventilators generally sell for $40-70,000USD to hospitals (who then go on to charge $20-40k for ventilator based treatment.) We're much better off right now with the government seizing the means of production and figuring out how to make as many as possible.

Because the government will seize their assets to the sound of the cheering public, and after this is over they will end up in jail. In war time conditions, governments ask nicely only once. So choose good publicity and being ethical vs having no business anymore.

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#123

Post by jcrubino »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #114
arcticbull wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. There’s no treatment other than supportive care. 2. Ventilators aren’t dumb iron lung machines. Current ventilators are large, complex and very much specialized machines which require special training to operate. Once you get to the point you need a ventilator the ventilator is the least of your problems.

"Supportive care" is not something I or most people know how to offer. That's my point. What does supportive care consist of? For example, I know from reading the news that pronating ventilated patients is considered preferable. What else? But really, I think this "home care in case the hospitals are full" thing is a pipe dream. A uniquely American pipe dream. For one thing, how are you going to hydrate and feed your…

You forgot the Respiratory Therapists.

As a former respiratory therapist I understand you concern about a project like this. I doubt anything beyond a CPAP machine is helpful for home care without risking a ventilator lung injury which is often characterized as the same lung pathology that COVID-19 creates in the acute respiratory cases.

That said, at home you could help at home patients relieve some symptoms until proper medical attention is available by doing positive breath holding exercises and chest percussion therapy to recruit more alveolar activity.

Paging Dr. Scott Weingart

https://emcrit.org/emcrit/some-additional-covid-airway-manag...

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#124

Post by salawat »

gentleman11 wrote: post #25
zackbloom wrote: post #7

If you're interested we are working on various mechanical ventilator designs which don't require actuators or electronics. There are actually devices like that in the market, you can learn more in our collaboration docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R25O2mKT3TfSjXTmheGEevIk... Edit: Another design we're considering based on an Army prototype: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hcuu-55q2a3_-LmBwg0uBdgM... If y…

As a member of that group, I honestly wonder what use our work will be due to regulations. Most hospitals cannot use uncertified equipment or software. I think however that there might be a large policy shift where these projects may become acceptable for use after some new or temporary legislation in 1-2 months. At that time, the projects may be extremely valuable

Do note the vaccine testing skipped the normal animal testing phase and went straight to human trials.

I'm pretty sure the regulator is willing to work with you. Also you should contact them now. It is actually possible you can tap into a lot of incidental industry experience if they point you toward someone who has spent a lot of time doing medical equipment certs or ventilator certs before.

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#125

Post by salawat »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #21
Mvandenbergh wrote: post #9

What we really need is a simple ventilator, designed by manufacturers who already know how to design and build these and produced at enormous scale using a shadow factory system similar to that developed in world war 2. In this model, the original manufacturer steps in to guide production, carry out quality control and probably supply the control electronics and software. All physical objects on which our civilisatio…

Devil's advocate: Why would a manufacturer consider damaging what is a potential mega cash cow? I read earlier that ventilators generally sell for $40-70,000USD to hospitals (who then go on to charge $20-40k for ventilator based treatment.) We're much better off right now with the government seizing the means of production and figuring out how to make as many as possible.

So, believe it or not. The Government is a lot better as a procurer than a manager in the long run. Private industry is much more free to morph the way they do things than the government is, and a lot of the government is already specialized around the logistics of outsourcing to private industry vs. doing any of the work themselves.

The arrangement does actually work fairly well in a crisis; you just need the sense of urgency to get everyone in the private sector all cranking on the same problem.

Or at least it has worked well before. Things like the F-22, F35, and Littoral Combat Ship aside... There is a point where stuff turns into a nightmare. The medical equipment needed though isn't really a problem where you should run into the sort of slog those projects ran into though.

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#126

Post by zozbot234 »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #21
Mvandenbergh wrote: post #9

What we really need is a simple ventilator, designed by manufacturers who already know how to design and build these and produced at enormous scale using a shadow factory system similar to that developed in world war 2. In this model, the original manufacturer steps in to guide production, carry out quality control and probably supply the control electronics and software. All physical objects on which our civilisatio…

Devil's advocate: Why would a manufacturer consider damaging what is a potential mega cash cow? I read earlier that ventilators generally sell for $40-70,000USD to hospitals (who then go on to charge $20-40k for ventilator based treatment.) We're much better off right now with the government seizing the means of production and figuring out how to make as many as possible.

Generally when this kind of thing happens, the private supplier is paid quite handsomely for their "IP". It's a win-win arrangement; think of it as funding open research by paying a "prize" after the fact as opposed to an ordinary "research grant". I don't generally support strict IP rights in the first place but if they're going to exist, opening them up to "shadow" suppliers should be commonplace.

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#127

Post by salawat »

lightgreen wrote: post #104
geomark wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why all the angst among US military and government about being unable for so long to produce their own rockets?

Why produce something when you can buy it cheaper? Economy 101.

Counterpoint: Global geopolitics and Military Logistical Strategy 101: sometimes you can't trust who you're buying that widget from when the widget in question has a significant contribution to maintaining National Security.

There are also risks to having someone else manufacture a widget that incorporates technology you'd rather not spread around.

This is why there will always be at least one domestic chip foundry, and most of the critical components of ICBM's /nuclear weapons are manufactured domestically as I understand it. Medical equipment also falls under that umbrella. Hell, even taps and dies do. God bless Admiral Rickover in that regard.

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#128

Post by intpx »

gentleman11 wrote: post #25
zackbloom wrote: post #7

If you're interested we are working on various mechanical ventilator designs which don't require actuators or electronics. There are actually devices like that in the market, you can learn more in our collaboration docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1R25O2mKT3TfSjXTmheGEevIk... Edit: Another design we're considering based on an Army prototype: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hcuu-55q2a3_-LmBwg0uBdgM... If y…

As a member of that group, I honestly wonder what use our work will be due to regulations. Most hospitals cannot use uncertified equipment or software. I think however that there might be a large policy shift where these projects may become acceptable for use after some new or temporary legislation in 1-2 months. At that time, the projects may be extremely valuable

In italy its so bad they are triaging to the point of not even treating the worst/most elderly cases. In extreme circumstances projects like this could save lives, regulations be damned.

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#129

Post by _ea1k »

ben_w wrote: post #77
neotek wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Musk has missed just about every goal he's ever set by a wide margin and has only managed to pull through because hordes of taxpayers and investors continue to line up to dump money into his black hole projects on the back of his self-aggrandising.

> Musk has missed just about every goal he's ever set by a wide margin Yes, but everyone else in the space sector has missed by a bigger margin . How’s the Bush Mars mission coming along? Bush senior that is, initiative announced 1989. > and has only managed to pull through because hordes of taxpayers and investors continue to line up to dump money into his black hole projects on the back of his self-aggrandising. Yo…

With the cars, I've come to the realization that most people just don't realize how hard it is or how many people have tried. I'm a big fan of the car industry and have looked at many of the past attempts (eg, Tucker, Bricklin, Delorean, Fisker, and now Tesla).

I can only think of one that topped 20,000 units, and they've hit 1 million. Being the only company since WWII to startup and do that is not a small feat.

Sure, I could listen to all of his hype and crazy rosy projections. I could also listen to the things his worst detractors say sometimes. Both sets are just as wrong, though, so I prefer to pay attention to what his businesses are actually doing.

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#130

Post by salawat »

sub7 wrote: post #68

Cool but almost all covid patients who get to a stage where they need ventilation need invasive, mechanical ventilation. NIV does not allow the lungs to clear fluid and mucus. It also allows the virus to spread via aerosol and infect anyone without full PPE in the vicinity.

At the risk of sounding like a rube...

Why don't we have people upside down when stuff like lung fluid drainage is a concern?

I do it at home when I've got bronchial issues going on and while not pretty, gravity does a great job at assisting fluid expulsion as long as you can keep the swelling to a reasonable level.

Yes, you look silly, and your head can get a bit stuffy; but in the long run I've found it an invaluable practice when I've already tapped out everything else I have to throw at the problem for myself At home.

Inversion tables aren't exactly difficult to manufucture either; even if you do need to make sure you have someone else around for safety sake.

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