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Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

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Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#121
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that there are some rule sets in which suicide is legal, so long as it doesn’t violate a generalized ko rule (no repeated board positions, considering whose turn it is as part of the position).

I implemented the Tromp-Taylor rules ( https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Computer_Go/Tromp-Taylor_Rules ) which have "A turn is either a pass; or a move that doesn't repeat an earlier grid coloring." Since it doesn't consider whose turn it is to move in whether a grid coloring is repeated, it won't allow suicide.

The prohibition on matching any earlier state of the board makes playing the game significantly more complex in reality, but not in terms of how many bits it takes to describe the rules.

Have you considered defining the complexity in terms of the number of bits required to implement the game, and not just the ruleset? Go requires a potentially very large list of past board states.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#122
post #6

> Is go played anywhere else in the universe, and was it discovered by chance there? > What openings do aliens play? I love these questions about if anyone else in the universe is playing Go. My gut response would be yes -- it's a simple enough game (regular game grid of any size roughly 5x5 on up, one type of piece, two players take turns alternating placing pieces, and any that are surrounded are removed). I suspec…

If it is true that Go is also played by other Alien species, there is no guarantee that they all play on the same size of board. If earth is visited by Aliens some day, we should assume they play on larger board than us. It would be laughable that we get visited by 9*9 players.

> If earth is visited by Aliens some day, we should assume they play on larger board than us. It would be laughable that we get visited by 9*9 players.

This only makes any sense if you're also confident that, should we visit an alien world some day, we would have updated the rules of Go to require a larger board.

If we can play on a 19x19 board for historical and sentimental reasons, aliens can play on a 9x9 board for historical and sentimental reasons.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#123
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even assuming that the concept of "game" would exist elsewhere seems like a ridiculous assumption. All of the things you are saying, even "purely mathematical" are just reflections of the way humans sense the world. Any alien species you are imagining here is just a reflection of mankind. Anyway, since probably won't know anytime soon, and perhaps never, this kind of speculation is a bit useless. But if we ever found…

"Playfulness" is fairly widespread among the intelligent animals of Earth. Mammals, birds, and cetaceans all seem to "play". From there it isn't that hard a guess that they might also "game", and for similar evolutionary reasons. Unless we're going to argue that Earth has some sort of unique concept of "playfulness" built into the original single cell, it's not that hard a guess that a good chunk of aliens out there…

Your guess is as good as mine. My guess is that all intelligent life in the universe would be "soooo unique", not just the one on Earth. So it would be very improbable any life form would be similar to that on Earth.

However, it could be probable that there are two life forms in the universe which are similar. But then they would probably be too far apart from each other to ever be able to communicate.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#124
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I looked into the complexity of games a few years ago, approximating this as the number of bytes needed to implement the rules as a program: https://www.jefftk.com/p/simplest-interesting-game Bottom line numbers: 280 gomoku 356 hex 483 dots and boxes 572 go 622 checkers

This is awesome! Any idea where Chess would stack up? I'm assuming it'd be greater than Checkers in that list, but how much greater? And would Nim be simpler than Gomoku (Connect-N)?

Checkout Oscar Toledo’s nanochess for tiny chess implementations.

https://nanochess.org/chess.html

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing I find fascinating, is not that Go was invented only once, but that it didn't spread to the West until 1880. Chess, by contrast, propagated rapidly throughout the Old World. I don't have an explanation for this. It seems curious.

Well, sort of. Chess spread from India, but in many different forms. The form we call "chess" today is only around 500 years old, although the original game is over 2000 years old. And even today, the Chinese and Japanese have chess games distinct from Western chess (Xiangqi and Shogi respectively). It's interesting that Go didn't similarly "speciate". Perhaps because unlike chess, there wasn't the multitude of piece…

It did, though. Go, I mean.

Korea had Sunjang Baduk: https://senseis.xmp.net/?SunjangBaduk

Tibet had its own variant: https://senseis.xmp.net/?TibetanGo

I didn't meant to imply that chess didn't mutate as it travelled around. It's still striking to me that Go was unknown anywhere which didn't use Hanzi to write.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#126
post #6

> Is go played anywhere else in the universe, and was it discovered by chance there? > What openings do aliens play? I love these questions about if anyone else in the universe is playing Go. My gut response would be yes -- it's a simple enough game (regular game grid of any size roughly 5x5 on up, one type of piece, two players take turns alternating placing pieces, and any that are surrounded are removed). I suspec…

The simplest board game I can think of is Snakes and Ladders, which is based on an ancient Indian game.

It definitely seems like the kind of thing that could be independently invented. It's so based in random chance.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#127
post #6

> Is go played anywhere else in the universe, and was it discovered by chance there? > What openings do aliens play? I love these questions about if anyone else in the universe is playing Go. My gut response would be yes -- it's a simple enough game (regular game grid of any size roughly 5x5 on up, one type of piece, two players take turns alternating placing pieces, and any that are surrounded are removed). I suspec…

If the universe is truly infinite, I would be incredibly surprised if any given thing happened a non-zero finite number of times.

Every NxNxN cube of space has a finite state space. Assuming an infinite universe, there are an infinite number of such spaces. If a state is likely enough to occur once, it ought to occur an infinite number of times.

This supposes not only a game functionally (if not superficially) identical to chess, possibly with differently shaped or colored pieces. It also supposes a world identical to Earth, called Earth by the English speaking humans who live there, who play a game called chess which functions exactly like chess, with knights that are called knights and bishops that are called bishops.

Which leaves us in an interesting conundrum. We can't ask which game is the most common, because many games occur infinitely many times: infinity doesn't let us make comparisons like that.[1]

Then we start asking questions like which games occur finitely many times? Of the finitely numbered games, which was the most common? Least? What does the probability curve look like? (This is honestly the most interesting to me. Is the peak at 1 unique copy which then exponentially decreases, or are there very few unique games which grow to a peak and then rapidly drop to zero, or is it a uniform distribution that just... Keeps going, or is it a boring normal distribution?) Which game had the most variations but still recognizable to a player of a middle of the road variation? Are there any ring species [2] of games, and if so, which has the largest ring? Is Star Trek 3D chess played unironically?

Other questions we can't ask: are there infinitely many games? There are not. Life is almost certainly bounded in size, which means there are a finite number of states. This gives us a finite number of creatures, and therefore a finite number of unique ideas.

Infinity is a fickle mistress.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert's_paradox_of_the_Gra...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is true that Go is also played by other Alien species, there is no guarantee that they all play on the same size of board. If earth is visited by Aliens some day, we should assume they play on larger board than us. It would be laughable that we get visited by 9*9 players.

> If earth is visited by Aliens some day, we should assume they play on larger board than us. It would be laughable that we get visited by 9*9 players. This only makes any sense if you're also confident that, should we visit an alien world some day, we would have updated the rules of Go to require a larger board. If we can play on a 19x19 board for historical and sentimental reasons, aliens can play on a 9x9 board fo…

Why don’t we play a 9x9 board for historical and sentimental reasons? Because it’s too easy for professionals.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#129
post #26

That was fun. My favorite two questions are: Is go played anywhere else in the universe, and was it discovered by chance there? What openings do aliens play? Our Universe is a huge place. I think it was Nature Magazine that had an article estimating 20,000 worlds with earth like conditions and life. My formal education is in physics and personally I subscribe to the multiverse hypothesis so with a potential infinite…

20,000 seems a little low. I imagine this needs at least 10 more zeroes

Any number is a bad guess because we don’t have any sense of the likelihood of life emerging, even in the “optimal conditions”. It could be so unlikely that it’s probable there is no other life, it could be so likely that almost every “viable” planet has life, anywhere in between, or it could be that God created exactly as much life as he wanted, which could be, again, any number.

We have a sample size of one and what must be, in the grand scheme, a primitive understanding of physics and chemistry and biology. Throwing around numbers and probabilities for the existence of other life is frankly ridiculous. The best we can intelligently talk about is what the number is given some guess about other numbers. But remember, we have no good numbers for the emergence of life, the survival of life, the likelihood of evolution into intelligent life, etc. Any number multiplied by a totally unknown factor can be literally anything.

And before someone throws the infinite universe argument at me, of course. Any probability above zero times infinity is infinity. (Though it’s also possible that there is still no extraterrestrial life even in that case, that outcome always has a non-zero probability!) If we accept a probabilistic emergence of life, then we need to talk about useful things like “in our solar system”, “in our galaxy”, “in the visible universe”, and such. Though it is theoretically possible that the conditions for the emergence of intelligent life are so narrow that only planets exactly like ours, so exactly like it that someone else on that planet has or will typed out this exact comment, have it. In a truly infinite, random (hmm, another bad assumption perhaps?) universe, there would be infinitely many such exact replicas of Earth and its entire visible universe. This isn’t a very useful concept.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#130
post #5

Do things like "best opening move", "worst handicap placement" or similar make sense if you assume perfect play ? I would think not, because when you have perfect play, you either win, lose or draw. So you just have "winning opening moves", "losing opening moves", and "draw opening moves". You cannot really rank them. Maybe the ranking would be the number of different games that lead you to a win, in a monte-carlo tr…

Go has points. An opening move is better than another if, given perfect play thereafter, you end up with more points.

But are those points counted in tournaments, or are they just counted to know who won the game ?

So, if you have a very clear path of how to win by 1 point, or a risky way to win by 10 points, does it make sense to try the risky path ?

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