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Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

jeanhsu.com

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Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#121

Post by stdbrouw »

nocman wrote: post #102
p_nathan wrote: post #70

Regarding the WSJ essay - my perspective is that what Chua's kids are going through is barbaric and will not generate well-educated, Renaissance-esque people. There is tremendous value in learning and discipline, and my observation of American schools makes me think that American schools are pretty weaksauce in the discipline and focus department. I don't think anyone out there denies that. To pick at a particular ex…

I'd like to know more specifically the choice of acceptable instruments. My observation is that the choices of piano and violin are not limited to Asian families (at least, not in the US). There seems to be a link between people who wish to foster academic excellence in their children, and the choice to have them play piano and/or violin. I'd be interested to know if anyone here has any insights as to why those parti…

Let me be one of those seven. I started playing classical guitar at 8, quit at 10, picked it up again out of my own volition at 15, and I never ever regretted the five potential years of practice I've wasted.

* You learn most when you actually want to learn, so forcing kids into extracurricular activities can but often doesn't lead to greatness.

* It's very, very easy to neglect any unhappiness that would've followed from being forced to play an instrument, because all that unhappiness is in the past. It feels like a free lunch, but it really isn't.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#122

Post by yardie »

I'm a constant immigrant and I can say this is not really a Chinese phenomena, but probably has more to do with immigrant mindset. I think because she is a successful driven professor she has upped the ante on this. So, in addition to what her mother considers successful she has added the cutthroat business and academic world of what is considered successful, then drummed that into her kids and got a book deal out of it.

As an immigrant from a caribbean island I see where she is coming from almost perfectly. Immigrants to the US aren't, in general, ditch diggers and gardeners. It requires a clean record, education, and motivation. Then when you arrive in the US the state isn't required to give you anything. From the moment you land, you and your family are basically on your own to find housing and work, though they do have local outreach programs to help in this. This survivorship mode carries on even when you are successful and especially when you have kids. My mom had few words for me, "STUDY!" and "What did you learn today?". "I love you", was reserved for birthdays and Christmas. Playing was reserved for weekends and summer breaks.

The one thing she did impart to me was motivation. At some point, when work demanded more from her, I had to be completely self-sufficient (or as much as a 10 year old could be). I was looking after my brother and sisters, studying, and running the household by myself (notice I haven't mentioned my father...long story). I enrolled in music courses, summer study courses, and enrolled at a magnet school. My mother stopped pushing me to excel and I started doing it on my own.

Now, I've moved to another country and started a family. And that same immigrant psychology of sink or swim has manifested in me. My son is only 3 but I'm pushing him to excel academically. I've said some of the same words to him that Chua has told her daughters (minus the verbal abuse). And I think at some point he will also be self sufficient, no angry mother or father leaning over his should to make sure he does his work or chores.

At the same time, the relationship I have with our mother is vastly different than what my brother and sisters have with her. I speak to her like a soldier speaks to an officer. They speak to her like a child to speaks to a mother. I'm really jealous that they have this type of relationship, and they are jealous that I'm the golden son.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#123

Post by lelele »

lionhearted wrote: post #46

A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…

> In his book, Agassi talks about hating tennis. He really does. His father, an immigrant to the USA from Iran, drilled tennis into him obsessively from a young age, constantly telling him he's going to be #1 in the world.

That tells something about the common wisdom that to succeed at anything, you have to love what you do. I'm talking just about results here, of course, not quality of living.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#124

Post by bluekeybox »

mnutt wrote: post #104
bluekeybox wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in the US a huge amount of her preparation time is spent on making lessons interesting to students, otherwise they disconnect. In China she is more focused on the lesson's subject matter, rather than tweaking the lesson for entertainment / attention value. I came to the U.S. from Eastern Europe and went to a U.S. college. The introductory science textbooks were all guilty of this. The biology textbooks especially w…

This reminds me of Why The Lucky Stiff's response to a critique of Why's Poignant Guide to Ruby: http://web.archive.org/web/20080526055424/redhanded.hobix.co... "The problem here is: the author of the article is trying to do academics, to gain knowledge, to build a career. And my cartoons and stories have patronized him, belittled him, by treating him as if he wasn’t a real professional. This is a terrible breach of…

Why's Poignant Guide to Ruby is sooo not like a typical introductory biology textbook that it's not even a comparison. W(p)GtR is hip, to-the-point, artistic, witty, with a distinctive voice, intelligently executed, and actually fun. A typical introductory biology textbook is usually designed by a committee with no actual UI design experience and has all the sex appeal of a fifty-something guy with male pattern baldness and bear belly who wears pleated khakis with a cell phone holster on the belt repeating a few slang phrases he memorized in order to seem cool.

It's like Calvin and Hobbes comic vs Microsoft Bob -- sad, really.

Basically the lesson is that if you don't know your audience (also when your audience consists of the entire young population of a country as diverse as the U.S., which is the case with textbooks), do not try to pull off cool and fun, because many people's idea of cool and fun is very different from yours. And if you must try to be cool/fun, hire some people who actually know how to be cool/fun in the first place.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#125

Post by bm98 »

jamesli wrote: post #74

I thought it was a satire at first when i read the original article in WSJ. I was astounded that Ms. Amy Chua was serious. How arrogant it is! It also makes me wonder why WSJ published such an apparently ridiculous article. What are the essential differences between claiming Chinese mother supremacy from white supremacy? Both my wife and I are Chinese. We have two lovely children. They are like free range chickens in…

> It also makes me wonder why WSJ published such an apparently ridiculous article.

Chua is trying to drum up interest for her new book on the same topic which goes on sale today. Her publisher, Penguin Books, is owned by Pearson PLC. Rupert Murdoch and News Corp (which owns the WSJ) has plenty of history with Pearson -- owning a significant stake in the company in the 80's, buying HarperCollins from Pearson in the 90's, competing with Pearson's Financial Times lately. I don't know if there is any Murdoch ownership in Pearson now, or any publishing agreements between the two companies, but I doubt the WSJ article was published based on editorial reasons alone.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#126

Post by fhe »

izendejas wrote: post #79
lionhearted wrote: post #46

A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…

To use your line of reasoning, let's take another anomaly: Steve Jobs. The dude was adopted, was a community college dropout and did a ton of drugs. He woke up one day at 42 and found himself back at the CEO position of the company he co-founded and now he's considered by many the most successful CEO of our time. His company has a market cap of $300 billion+ and has created a whole lot of other intangibles by surroun…

Factual correction: Jobs went to Reed, hardly a community college.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#127

Post by stcredzero »

While trying to give them an academic advantage, these parents are really stunting their personal and social development.

This rings true in my experience. I don't think my parents understood the difference between substantive (and personal) success and societal success. Actually, for me the pervasive and insistent message was that my passions do not matter and are probably wrong and bad.

Their narrow-minded formula for success (great grades, ivy league, medical school, high paying job) may work for some, but it alienates those who might find success elsewhere.

I was one of these kids. At middle age I am still dealing with the emotional scars and just starting to find my true place in the world.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#128

Post by stcredzero »

sown wrote: post #78
lionhearted wrote: post #46

A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…

I was raised like this. My mom showed me no real love, nor did my family. I buckled under the pressure and when the time came for any real emotional support, they abandoned me in an attempt to get me to "try harder." I never forgave them and I don't talk to them any more. In the end, regardless of how they felt or their intentions, I was made out to be nothing more than an ornament, a product for the glory of the fam…

I was raised like this. My mom showed me no real love, nor did my family. I buckled under the pressure and when the time came for any real emotional support, they abandoned me in an attempt to get me to "try harder." I never forgave them and I don't talk to them any more.

In the end, regardless of how they felt or their intentions, I was made out to be nothing more than an ornament, a product for the glory of the family name.

All societies have their pathologies. Witness the stuff women had to go through in the 50's and 60's in the US. There's always ugliness under the surface. People just adapt and accept things as normal. It will always be the case that some part of "normal" is messed up if you look at it the right way.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#129

Post by zppx »

izendejas wrote: post #79
lionhearted wrote: post #46

A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…

To use your line of reasoning, let's take another anomaly: Steve Jobs. The dude was adopted, was a community college dropout and did a ton of drugs. He woke up one day at 42 and found himself back at the CEO position of the company he co-founded and now he's considered by many the most successful CEO of our time. His company has a market cap of $300 billion+ and has created a whole lot of other intangibles by surroun…

NeXT and Pixar in the middle, hardly just waking up.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#130

Post by stcredzero »

astrange wrote: post #84
lionhearted wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For one Agassi, there are a thousand Chinese children pushed as hard that don't make it anywhere. The question isn't whether you achieve the highest levels of success - it's how results stack up on average... I tend to think the achievement/duty style of parenting does well at producing good results on balance. A lot of the numbers bare this out, depending on what you're looking for. > That's the kids you should be…

As a young person in the West, almost all the unhappy other young people I know just want a girlfriend. Perhaps you should find some young people and see if teaching them duty gets them one.

Duty to the glorification of one family seems a petty thing to me. The egoistic pursuit of personal glory or the pursuit of hedonistic pleasure also seems petty. I suggest instead a devotion to truth and substance.

Instead of pushing your kids to play violin to "get to State," I would suggest finding joy and art in music yourself. The former often produces mediocrity. The latter produces the sublime. There are tons of former "young prodigies" who put away their instrument as a forgotten childhood thing, whereas many of the best artists I know received a true joy in music from their parents.

It can even help with the girlfriend part.

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