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Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

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Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#121

Post by renaudg »

rvz wrote: post #97
mettamage wrote: post #22

Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You can organize this with one referendum, which is: 1. Would you like to do another referendum on leaving the EU? A) Yes B) No 2. Great-Brittain should leave the EU A) Yes B) No If people still want Great-Brittain to leave, then they bought themselves some time and otherwise this whole brexit thing has been resolved.

> Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You say that, (Even if it is a joke) but here in the UK, this is exactly the same as the 'People's Vote' that gives the final say to the people on how the Brexit process should progress, despite the UK already voting leave in 2016. Democracy doesn't care on how 'close' the result was, the people voted to leave and that should be…

From a legal standpoint :

- the referendum was an advisory, non-binding one.

- the electoral commission has found the Vote Leave campaign in breach of electoral law and referred them to the police.

From a moral one :

- Nearly every single argument the Leave side had put forward has been shown to be a lie.

- Foreign interference.

- Every single opinion poll in the past two years has shown that people had changed their mind and would now vote Remain.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#122

Post by renaudg »

pjc50 wrote: post #118
rvz wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You say that, (Even if it is a joke) but here in the UK, this is exactly the same as the 'People's Vote' that gives the final say to the people on how the Brexit process should progress, despite the UK already voting leave in 2016. Democracy doesn't care on how 'close' the result was, the people voted to leave and that should be…

There will most likely be another Scottish independence vote at some point, especially if Brexit happens. Referendums won by a tiny margin do not settle an issue. They're not final for the same reason that elections aren't final.

As Nigel Farage famously put it (when he still thought his side would lose) : "A 52-48 result would be unfinished business by a long way"

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#123

Post by pjc50 »

mft_ wrote: post #78
ssl232 wrote: post #6

A peculiarity: the "south east" is the area most typically associated with the Conservatives and their voters, who have been in power for the past 9 years and who have driven most of the Brexit rhetoric. The south east is also nearest the Channel Tunnel and ferry ports to the continent, and so their food, drugs, etc. will suffer the least delay, least spoilage, etc. in the case of a "No Deal" Brexit.

> the "south east" is the area most typically associated with the Conservatives and their voters No it's not. Look at a political map of England by geography - everywhere is Conservative, apart from areas associated with major cities, their surrounding areas, and a few small patches. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_United_Kingdom_general_...

Maps like this are maps of population density above all. Half the population lives on the labour areas, and many of the Scottish seats are huge and empty.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#124

Post by 08-15 »

skummetmaelk wrote: post #36
mikedilger wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The case for Brexit that I've heard from the beginning has not changed, so if you honestly haven't heard it, it goes something like this: the primary goal is to retain sovereignty while Britain still can; to arrest the slow but inexorable yielding of power to unelected officials of the E.U.

Can you explain which unelected officials you are talking about specifically. How does the number of unelected officials differ from the national government of the UK? In both cases there is a parliament where you vote for someone to represent your area. You cannot vote for anyone outside your area. In the EU your area is a country and in the UK your area is a smaller part of the country. If you live in Scotland, nor…

> which unelected officials

The European Commission. Remember, the Commission gets to propose legislation, the Parliament (which you elect) doesn't.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#126

Post by pjc50 »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #62
throwaway122379 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2 year window and article 50 was an addition from UK ironically Also they did not have to lodge the article 50 letter when they did, they could have spent years preparing and figuring out what it is exactly they want to accomplish. Finally the EU gave an extension twice now for them to figure out what they want, instead of doing that UK govt doubled down on stupid.

If the UK wants more time, they should just revoke article 50 and then activate it again later on. I don't understand this whole "will the EU grant an extension?" business.

The Brexiteers are very aware that their win was narrow and they will never be given another chance. If it's revoked it will stay dead.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#127

Post by pjc50 »

mft_ wrote: post #86
Jare wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be absurd, nobody is trying to, or needs to, punish the UK. This is simply what happens when you jump without a parachute. There are so many things broken in the Brexit process, broken things that exist inside the UK alone, that the mere notion that the problems are caused intentionally by some foreign bad guys is just, well, absurd.

Seriously, irrespective of which ever side of the debate you stand, you must see that the EU has a strong, strong incentive to make this as difficult for the UK as possible?

No? Especially look at Ireland, which is driving quite a bit of the EU side such as the "backstop"; they're very closely tied to the UK and don't want to go down with it.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#128

Post by untog »

beaner wrote: post #30
untog wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because one leaked document is controversial (and last I checked the Steele dossier isn't confirmed to be all that inaccurate) we should disregard all leaked communications? That feels like faulty logic. Should we have dismissed Watergate because it was based on leaked information?

The problem isn't that it's leaked, it's that it's taken as true without further regard, despite changes since then or even untruths contained within, because it is what some people want to believe to be true. The "leak" aspect makes it seem secretive and therefore more revealing, when in reality it likely lulled from inaccuracy.

None of that is true, though. It's taken as the only evidence we currently have. The government is free to dispute it, to disown it, and to publish its own contrary information.

Still waiting.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#129

Post by martin8412 »

gumby wrote: post #55
mikedilger wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The case for Brexit that I've heard from the beginning has not changed, so if you honestly haven't heard it, it goes something like this: the primary goal is to retain sovereignty while Britain still can; to arrest the slow but inexorable yielding of power to unelected officials of the E.U.

> slow but inexorable yielding of power to unelected officials of the E.U. ...despite the fact that no EU rules can go into force in any EU state without that state passing a law to make it happen within its borders. And despite the rather pointless European Parliament, the real decisions are made by the elected heads of member state governments, when they meet as the European Council. So after Brexit the new boss wi…

It is not quite true. Certain things can indeed be implemented without a local law being passed in parliament. But that is very rarely used, and when used it is for actual important stuff that a lot of people would agree is a good thing.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#130

Post by martin8412 »

esotericn wrote: post #11
ssl232 wrote: post #6

A peculiarity: the "south east" is the area most typically associated with the Conservatives and their voters, who have been in power for the past 9 years and who have driven most of the Brexit rhetoric. The south east is also nearest the Channel Tunnel and ferry ports to the continent, and so their food, drugs, etc. will suffer the least delay, least spoilage, etc. in the case of a "No Deal" Brexit.

I think that's over-egging it a bit. You can drive from Dover to almost all of the mainland UK in 8 hours. The Scottish Highlands will take a bit longer. It'll be a problem, but I doubt being close to the port will make a difference.

I mean.. If the people crossing the border at Dover are as slow as the average person passing the British border, then the backlog will be all the way from Dover to Inverness
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