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Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

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Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#111

Post by throwaway9kls »

As bad as a hard Brexit would be for the UK, it it probably necessary at this point, if for no other reason than to give the hard-core Brexiteers exactly what they want

The way that Hitler was defeated was that Berlin was pounded into rubble that put paid to the revival of stab-in-the-back theories that followed WW1. Japan was defeated by two nuclear bombs that replaced any hope of resistance with fear of obliteration. Bin Laden killed in his pajamas, and his body was dumped in the ocean: an ignominious end to a man who claimed to take divine inspiration for his acts. The supporters of these ideologies had to experience the shame of total defeat, and see no hope, before they moved on.

A hard Brexit, while causing some pain for the British public, may well be the medicine needed to show its most fanatical supporters the error of their ways. Otherwise their resentment will fester for decades longer.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#112

Post by brmgb »

mft_ wrote: post #86
Jare wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be absurd, nobody is trying to, or needs to, punish the UK. This is simply what happens when you jump without a parachute. There are so many things broken in the Brexit process, broken things that exist inside the UK alone, that the mere notion that the problems are caused intentionally by some foreign bad guys is just, well, absurd.

Seriously, irrespective of which ever side of the debate you stand, you must see that the EU has a strong, strong incentive to make this as difficult for the UK as possible?

The EU has been extremely reasonable in its dealing with the UK to this point and thus despite the UK coming to the table with a list of red lines bordering on the impossible. The agreement which was refused by the UK parliament is a good compromise. That's as far from a punishment you can get.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#113

Post by martin_a »

mettamage wrote: post #22

Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You can organize this with one referendum, which is: 1. Would you like to do another referendum on leaving the EU? A) Yes B) No 2. Great-Brittain should leave the EU A) Yes B) No If people still want Great-Brittain to leave, then they bought themselves some time and otherwise this whole brexit thing has been resolved.

> If people still want Great-Britain to leave, then they bought themselves some time and otherwise this whole brexit thing has been resolved.

It already has been resolved. People voted for "Leave", so let's do that now as fast as possible. There's no reason in voting until you like the outcome.

I have written it before: I'm totally against the Brexit but people wanted a vote, got a vote and the result is clear. While this might have negative consequences for quite a few people, this vote can't be ignored.

The UK must leave the EU as soon and hard as possible with all the consequences this brings with it, including border controls and no deals whatsoever with the EU.

This will on the one hand be a positive sign for the people: Votes are not useless and the will of the majority is accepted. The outcome might be bad, but that's a common problem with votes at all.

On the other hand this will be a good sign/valuable lesson for lots of other European countries. Quite a few are struggling with the concept of the EU and might ask themselves why they are a member of the EU and what they might get out of it. Let the UK be an example to them.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#114

Post by pjc50 »

mikedilger wrote: post #28
te_chris wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a govt risk assessment document, not just “politics”. Assuming you’re a brexiteer....what exactly is the positive case for brexit now? Because no one I can hear is making it, merely saying it has to happen, like a visit to one’s in laws that destroys the economy and fractures society.

The case for Brexit that I've heard from the beginning has not changed, so if you honestly haven't heard it, it goes something like this: the primary goal is to retain sovereignty while Britain still can; to arrest the slow but inexorable yielding of power to unelected officials of the E.U.

The "unelected" line is moronic in a country with an unelected head of state and the only unelected legislative chamber in a "democratic" country.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#115

Post by jimnotgym »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #98
sleavey wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. A recent poll was quoted on yesterday's "Any Questions?" show on BBC Radio 4 by a Brexiteer, which apparently asked the public "should MPs represent their own views or those of their constituents?". Some small number of voters - I forget, but it was around 7% - thought they should represent their own views and the rest thought those of their constituents. This was, in the Brexiteer's view, evidence that MPs d…

> Thing is, we elect MPs exactly so they can express their views in parliament. This is generally not true. We elect representative so they can express our views. We don't care what their views are, except to the extent that their views might impede them from expressing our views.

That is exactly the opposite of the prevailing thought and the guidance given to MPs. They are supposed to be a representative, not a delegate. They are supposed to do what they believe is right.

>'The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmmo...

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#116

Post by pjc50 »

throwaway9kls wrote: post #111

As bad as a hard Brexit would be for the UK, it it probably necessary at this point, if for no other reason than to give the hard-core Brexiteers exactly what they want The way that Hitler was defeated was that Berlin was pounded into rubble that put paid to the revival of stab-in-the-back theories that followed WW1. Japan was defeated by two nuclear bombs that replaced any hope of resistance with fear of obliteratio…

I'd agree with this apart from the cost to other people being completely unacceptable.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#117

Post by mettamage »

rvz wrote: post #97
mettamage wrote: post #22

Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You can organize this with one referendum, which is: 1. Would you like to do another referendum on leaving the EU? A) Yes B) No 2. Great-Brittain should leave the EU A) Yes B) No If people still want Great-Brittain to leave, then they bought themselves some time and otherwise this whole brexit thing has been resolved.

> Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You say that, (Even if it is a joke) but here in the UK, this is exactly the same as the 'People's Vote' that gives the final say to the people on how the Brexit process should progress, despite the UK already voting leave in 2016. Democracy doesn't care on how 'close' the result was, the people voted to leave and that should be…

I'd say 2 is a good number. They have seen the potential consequences a lot better (if this assumption proves to be false, then 1 is a good number, you can test it by amount of people that feel greatly more knowledgeable about this topic), therefore, they have better knowledge to vote.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#118

Post by pjc50 »

rvz wrote: post #97
mettamage wrote: post #22

Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You can organize this with one referendum, which is: 1. Would you like to do another referendum on leaving the EU? A) Yes B) No 2. Great-Brittain should leave the EU A) Yes B) No If people still want Great-Brittain to leave, then they bought themselves some time and otherwise this whole brexit thing has been resolved.

> Since the vote was so close, why not do another referendum on doing another referendum? You say that, (Even if it is a joke) but here in the UK, this is exactly the same as the 'People's Vote' that gives the final say to the people on how the Brexit process should progress, despite the UK already voting leave in 2016. Democracy doesn't care on how 'close' the result was, the people voted to leave and that should be…

There will most likely be another Scottish independence vote at some point, especially if Brexit happens. Referendums won by a tiny margin do not settle an issue. They're not final for the same reason that elections aren't final.

Re: Leaked Brexit Document Predicts 'Catastrophic Collapse' of U.K. Infrastructure

#119

Post by jimnotgym »

pjc50 wrote: post #114
mikedilger wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The case for Brexit that I've heard from the beginning has not changed, so if you honestly haven't heard it, it goes something like this: the primary goal is to retain sovereignty while Britain still can; to arrest the slow but inexorable yielding of power to unelected officials of the E.U.

The "unelected" line is moronic in a country with an unelected head of state and the only unelected legislative chamber in a "democratic" country.

Something we will have to deal with before the next generation rejoins the EU. Having an unelected chamber would disqualify us from joining!
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