Zed Shaw: Why I Don't Use Tor • Hacker News Board

Re: Zed Shaw: Why I Don't Use Tor

#121

Post by zedshaw » Tue, Dec 28, 2010, 6:33 PM UTC

insect wrote: post #78

zedshaw wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious about this, so I started googling for how to do this. Sure enough, it's a bitch and the only way to really do it easily is to use a GUI like Tork. Not to mention I can't seem to figure out how you find his nodes in order to BadExit them, and I very seriously doubt his nodes will get listed in anything official. Anyone got good instructions on how to actually BadExit his nodes? I want to post them so peo…

If you add this to your torrc: ExcludeNodes $0AD3FA884D18F89EEA2D89C019379E0E7FD94417,$3100A70862157E5F9136B6AAEB7571745D4DC055,$49E2C345FDA5E9ADFE13320690BF2C77EA803E6C,$4A0CCD2DDC7995083D73F5D667100C8A5831F16D,$5FABB67A4C229ECACD53F5E02B62C87E5300728D,$62665FD8A07D2E0F6ABDB4A36283A5A8824C0128,$6AF64BD1DF8B92D5194760C2256EBF80F70273DD,$71B7F2406DDAE829979B53963B952E17CD021125,$8522EB98C91496E80EC238E732594D1509158E7…

WOW. So usable. I'm sure everyone who doesn't trust his affiliation with Wikileaks will just sit right down and punch that in.

Re: Zed Shaw: Why I Don't Use Tor

#122

Post by joeycfan » Tue, Dec 28, 2010, 6:34 PM UTC

What makes Tor great in my opinion is that it is the best way to hide a website, yet still let people get at it.

Re: Zed Shaw: Why I Don't Use Tor

#123

Post by zedshaw » Tue, Dec 28, 2010, 6:35 PM UTC

poet wrote: post #44

It's shit like this Zed... Two basic claims: Tor is tainted because (1) the concepts the software is based on were developed with partial funding from the military and (2) Zed thinks one of the committers is untrustworthy. Guess what? That describes a huge amount of software, including Mac OS X and Firefox . God damn Zed, this Hitler sandwich shit is pretty weak. Zed also has a problem with Tor because he thinks ther…

Thomas is very right, but I was more interested in my reasons why I don't use Tor based on all the crap I see going on around it.

Re: Zed Shaw: Why I Don't Use Tor

#124

Post by poet » Tue, Dec 28, 2010, 6:37 PM UTC

gnosis wrote: post #116

tptacek wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to put a big blinking red light on all your packets so that the largest, best-armed surveillance state in the world can collect and analyze them, I guess there's very little harm in waving rubber chickens over them too. Go ahead with the stego. You might want to read Neils Provos' stegdetect stuff, first. The world needs more fun grad student projects, and you wouldn't want people to have to rehash th…

Sure, steganography and steganalysis are in an arms race, just like encryption and cryptanalysis. But if the existence of such an arms race doesn't stop someone from using encryption it shouldn't stop them from using steganography. Of course, you need to be prudent about it. Use the most secure techniques available, and don't use methods you know have been broken. Finally, know that you are taking a risk, that nothin…

The difference is that with cryptography the actors are nation states v. nation states. With steganography the actors are activists v. nation states.

Also, what makes you think activists have the technical expertise available to know what the "most secure techniques available" are and what methods have been broken?

Re: Zed Shaw: Why I Don't Use Tor

#125

Post by zedshaw » Tue, Dec 28, 2010, 6:37 PM UTC

redthrowaway wrote: post #15

alanh wrote: post #2

“@zedshaw If you don't trust Tor because of me, you clearly do not understand how Tor works. You can BadExit my nodes buddy.” Appelbaum, https://twitter.com/#!/ioerror/status/19703396818747392

Am I the only one who is disappointed that two supposedly professional adults can't manage to have a grown up conversation about this? Reading the back and forth is pretty disheartening.

Oh, it's pretty much impossible to have any rational conversation these days. The majority of the technology speech these days is manipulative, flat out wrong, very anti free speech, and hyperbolic. When you start from that, there's just no point trying to be reasonable.

Re: Zed Shaw: Why I Don't Use Tor

#126

Post by zedshaw » Tue, Dec 28, 2010, 6:39 PM UTC

praptak wrote: post #6

alanh wrote: post #2

“@zedshaw If you don't trust Tor because of me, you clearly do not understand how Tor works. You can BadExit my nodes buddy.” Appelbaum, https://twitter.com/#!/ioerror/status/19703396818747392

If Appelbaum actually works on Tor then just BadExit'ing his nodes is obviously not enough. Even a clean compile (for the paranoid: do you trust your compiler?) from a fully audited (do you have the resources?) source code is not enough. In order to use Tor you gotta trust the other nodes, including the code that runs there.

I doubt Jacob is hacking his own code, he'd have way too much to lose and I do believe he actually loves the project. If he were to do anything it'd be handing interesting traffic off various exit nodes he and friends control to Wikileaks. That'd be about all I or anyone else could allegedly claim.

Re: Zed Shaw: Why I Don't Use Tor

#127

Post by gnosis » Tue, Dec 28, 2010, 6:41 PM UTC

JonnieCache wrote: post #46

dublinclontarf wrote: post #32

As someone living on the other side of the Great Firewall of China it's become VERY clear that a government can effectively censor the internet(without VPN to get out it's terrible), provided that the government in question put enough effort into it. As I said in another comment, the Chinese government has beaten Tor. You can't download it or even read about it(almost everything Tor related is blocked). Even when you…

At the end of the day when you're dealing with a government that has absolutely no qualms about simply taking you away and killing you discreetly, regardless of who you are, there is no hack clever enough to protect you.

"At the end of the day when you're dealing with a government that has absolutely no qualms about simply taking you away and killing you discreetly, regardless of who you are, there is no hack clever enough to protect you."

The thing is that for many people the risk of getting killed is worth it, and protecting the source is not the ultimate goal.

History has shown us that dissidents will often and gladly risk their own lives to get their message out. And often, despite the risks, they've managed to evade detection and capture even when they were up against huge, ruthless spy networks like those of the Soviet Union, post-war East Germany, or the Gestapo.

Re: Zed Shaw: Why I Don't Use Tor

#128

Post by burgerbrain » Tue, Dec 28, 2010, 6:46 PM UTC

redthrowaway wrote: post #15

alanh wrote: post #2

“@zedshaw If you don't trust Tor because of me, you clearly do not understand how Tor works. You can BadExit my nodes buddy.” Appelbaum, https://twitter.com/#!/ioerror/status/19703396818747392

Am I the only one who is disappointed that two supposedly professional adults can't manage to have a grown up conversation about this? Reading the back and forth is pretty disheartening.

What's so immature about Appelbaum's response? It seems like a pretty reasonable offhand dismissal of a silly accusation.

Re: Zed Shaw: Why I Don't Use Tor

#129

Post by zedshaw » Tue, Dec 28, 2010, 6:48 PM UTC

drats wrote: post #24

Ad Hominems are a-ok now are they? Well here's Zed's thought process: a) Read Greenwald Salon article accusing Wired of having shady connections. b) Roll that basic premise into a set of wild accusations and things we already know about Tor. c) Sit back and enjoy the whole chaos of the troll. When someone attacks bring out the usual sockpuppets and sycophants to say "but Zed does all this great coding", "Zed is not l…

Ad hominems are totally alright in my book, especially since everyone loves doing them to me and then bitching when they're done back.

For example, your post doesn't have a single link giving counter evidence. You'd think you could bring some of that out but so far, in this entire thread, there hasn't been one link with counter evidence. There's been links to our twitter conversation, links to things supporting Tor is crap, links to discussions of Steganography, but so far I can't see 1, not ONE link with counter evidence proving me wrong.

I actually would love some, and was hoping I'd get some since I provided references, but nope. Just bullshit rhetoric and ad hominem from people who claim to hate bullshit rhetoric and ad hominem. So don't go acting like you're all above the drama.

Re: Zed Shaw: Why I Don't Use Tor

#130

Post by zedshaw » Tue, Dec 28, 2010, 6:50 PM UTC

limmeau wrote: post #17

So why use OpenSSL, then? It's been written by people I don't know. Some of them may be Vigilants. Some of them may be secret members of the Wikileaks team. One of them even studied only 12km from the BND headquarters. It has had exploitable holes before.

I don't use OpenSSL in software I wrote if I don't have to. :-)