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Men, commit to mentor women

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Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#121

Post by throwaway84538 »

0815test wrote: post #71
alphabettsy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She “brought up her ass to you” and your reply “slipped part your filter”. What does any of that mean?

Presumably, it means that OP was made uncomfortable and voiced that discomfort in some way, and she took it badly/got offended for whatever reason. It's hard to say more than that based on what he/she stated - but even that implies that the workplace culture must be quite bad there. Not the sort of place many men would want to work in, for sure!

It was a younger workplace where sexual comments were not uncommon from either gender. For the most part, the more attractive you were the better liked you were by your peers. I actually had a pretty fantastic female boss when I was let go who was helping me work on being less socially awkward. She left me a glowing review on my LinkedIn and she was aware of everything that transpired and what was said. People who know me think this is funny, because they know me and how easily mortified I get when I say something I don't intend to. I'm significantly better now, but it's taken a lot of effort on my part. I've never been an overtly sexual person so this was a really odd situation for me to be in. In the end I ended up with a new job in a different place for lots more money.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#122

Post by cannonedhamster »

AdamHede wrote: post #82

people calling it a sensible strategy or solid 'risk assessment' really surprises me. You are to a large degree in charge of your risk. Proper, fullblown, 100% fabcricated accussations seems exceedingly rare. I've never seen any stats and the anecdotes I hear are often 3rd or 4rd degree. Be a decent human being and you are probably still more likely to get struck by lightning or die in a car crash. Meanwhile, the cos…

No one expects to be in a situation until they're in it. It's a Faustian bargain to be sure. There's no good outcome to come of either men sexually harassing women in any situation, and cutting out female coworkers isn't the solution either but plainly this was an expected result. If people are rational their first reaction is to be selfish and protect themselves and their family. In a few years there will be a new normal and things will start changing, but social change always does.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#123

Post by xupybd »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #23
xupybd wrote: post #5

It’s a simple risk reward call. There is far more risk of accidentally crossing the line with the opposite sex. Yes MeToo has shed light on a lot and no doubt been a net positive but there will be a time until the dust settles and people learn how to work together safely. We no longer have a good formal set of norms for male female interaction. Maybe that could make some sense in situations like the work place where…

"No longer"? #MeToo was about highlighting how many dysfunctional behaviours occurred with the current set of norms, so clearly the old norms didn't work great either.

Pre sexual revolution there were strict codes of conduct. Often broken but they were thrown out leaving a void.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#124

Post by xupybd »

microwavecamera wrote: post #78
xupybd wrote: post #5

It’s a simple risk reward call. There is far more risk of accidentally crossing the line with the opposite sex. Yes MeToo has shed light on a lot and no doubt been a net positive but there will be a time until the dust settles and people learn how to work together safely. We no longer have a good formal set of norms for male female interaction. Maybe that could make some sense in situations like the work place where…

That's a load of BS. Have you ever been accused of "crossing the line" with a male colleague? Have you even been concerned that you might? If not, then I think I found your problem. If someone can't come in to work and do something as simple a act like a professional around their co-workers for a few hours then it makes me wonder what else they can't do professionally.

A male colleague will often lean on others here at work. Other males. It's a little creepy but no one really cares. It just doesn't have the same impact.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#125

Post by xupybd »

timavr wrote: post #19
xupybd wrote: post #5

It’s a simple risk reward call. There is far more risk of accidentally crossing the line with the opposite sex. Yes MeToo has shed light on a lot and no doubt been a net positive but there will be a time until the dust settles and people learn how to work together safely. We no longer have a good formal set of norms for male female interaction. Maybe that could make some sense in situations like the work place where…

Can you define accidentally? Do a lot of people give their boss middle finger accidentally? Like yo, went to work, talked to CEO and give him finger, must be weather.

No but people do get too familiar with the boss and make comments or conduct them selves in ways that are not appropriate with a boss.

People do make jokes that offend CEO's or customers all the time. Social interaction is not as easy to navigate for everyone.

I'm not talking about blatant abuses of power here I'm talking about subtle interactions that make people uncomfortable.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#126

Post by alphabettsy »

throwaway84538 wrote: post #119
pwinnski wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like he said something inappropriate about a coworker's body, but it's still somehow the coworker's fault and a false allegation, according to him. When your self-reporting still makes you sound defensive about bad behavior, you probably need to come to terms with, and take responsibility for, your actions.

I take responsibility for my actions, but this kind of proves the point of why guys don't want to be around women in the workplace. It doesn't matter what the situation is you're automatically assumed to be a lecherous hump. My comment which was meant as a "what the hell am I supposed to say to that" could easily have been construed differently. Bad behavior? I was mentally exhausted from 12 hours on the phone, locki…

Any implications are based on exactly what you said. You painted a picture of the scenario about like looking through Jello.

In one sentence you say you made an inappropriate comment and apologized, and later lament that one misconstrued comment can cost you a job, but that’s not what happened.

It seems like you still don’t feel any responsibility. Maybe the woman did tempt you, I don’t know what she said, but you make it seems as if she made the words come from your mouth. If she made sexually suggestive comments first, that’s wrong and she should’ve been disciplined as well, but how is anyone to know that when you can’t be straightforward.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#127

Post by reboog711 »

pgsandstrom wrote: post #53
reboog711 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You hear horror stories about men being falsely accused and getting their lives ruined While I have heard these stories, they are all anecdotes that I wasn't able to verify. Can you give any real cases?

I dont think OP is necessarily suggesting the fear is justified. But fear does influence our actions, and can be really hard to reason your way out of.

Very valid point, thank you!

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#128

Post by alphabettsy »

luckylion wrote: post #72
alphabettsy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Even my local news has had stories about black people claiming they were called racial slurs or subjected to racist jokes at work. Google “GM plant racism” for a national story, of Tesla, or Chrysler. It’s been an issue at all in the last few years.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say there isn't any racism, I meant it's not a he-said-she-said-situation that can end careers without any evidence of wrongdoing. The Toledo plant sounds very different from that, with "whites only" signs and nooses (and management tolerating it). The men who are not mentoring women for the reasons stated in the article certainly don't openly insult and harass them, because that would end the…

People care significantly less about racism which is why it doesn’t often end careers, but instead leads to sensitivity training or an apology. In many, probably most, cases it’s exactly he-said-she-said because people aren’t usually stupid/arrogant enough to leave physical proof of their racism.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#129

Post by thrower123 »

It's quite a lot easier to just work in an all-male department. You don't have to tiptoe around, you can say what you think, criticism can be offered honestly. Considerably fewer grudges are held. Stuff just gets done.

My wife works as a PM for another software company with a much different gender ratio, and every day she comes home with stories about backbiting and jockeying for position and incredibly petty feuding that makes the sum of what I've seen in the entire eight years at my employer pale in comparison. Every single day it's more drama, and they drown in communication, with so much sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Re: Men, commit to mentor women

#130

Post by slowmovintarget »

DuskStar wrote: post #112
slowmovintarget wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. There's a whole body of language out there used to deride male behaviors in the workplace: - mansplaining: not the same as mentoring, but try drawing that Venn diagram someday. - patriarchal: Shame on men for assuming women _need_ help from them with their careers. That's a sexist assumption. Try drawing the Venn diagram for mentoring and fatherly behavior. The whole bandwagon of "microaggressions" and "unconsci…

I don't think you're disagreeing with the GP here.

I'm stating agreement with the post I replied to, yes.
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