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Facebook taps lawyer who helped write Patriot Act as new general counsel

thehill.com

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Re: Facebook taps lawyer who helped write Patriot Act as new general counsel

#121

Post by SaltyBackendGuy »

sprayk wrote: post #113

Any time I see arguments to effect of "lawyer X lawyered for Y, and Y is bad, so lawyer X is bad," I remember an episode from Star Trek: TNG called "The Measure of a Man," in which Picard is chosen to defend Data's right to self-determination as a sentient being, and Riker is chosen to make the opposite case for the character that wants to treat Data as a machine, a weapon that can be reallocated freely like a Jeep o…

Damn that was a good episode. Thanks for the nostalgia.

Anecdotally, my father was a criminal defense attorney. There clients he didn't want to represent for personal reasons but did due to financial obligations, part of the profession. Lucky for him later in his career he was able to pick and choose more freely.

But I agree, the "lawyer X lawyered for Y" argument is a farce in most cases.

Re: Facebook taps lawyer who helped write Patriot Act as new general counsel

#122

Post by cmonnow »

Aeolun wrote: post #118
sprayk wrote: post #113

Any time I see arguments to effect of "lawyer X lawyered for Y, and Y is bad, so lawyer X is bad," I remember an episode from Star Trek: TNG called "The Measure of a Man," in which Picard is chosen to defend Data's right to self-determination as a sentient being, and Riker is chosen to make the opposite case for the character that wants to treat Data as a machine, a weapon that can be reallocated freely like a Jeep o…

Aside from that, I think that a lot of developers are in a terrible position to blame that lawyer. How often have you added morally dubious scripts or features to your company products/websites?

didn't realize that wasn't a rhetoric..

have you actually added gray-area features ? any anecdotes without giving away your trench position ?

Re: Facebook taps lawyer who helped write Patriot Act as new general counsel

#123

Post by godelski »

resters wrote: post #106
godelski wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do not take this conversation off topic. It is against the rules. We are distinguishing "social credit scores" from "credit scores". If you would like to argue why they are in fact the same, then that is on topic. But if you are going to assert that they are different and continue off on a tangent then you are going off topic. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not trolling, but there's plent…

I was certainly not trolling, I was responding to your comment about no fly lists. Sadly you have no response and are resorting to name calling and righteous indignation. I agree with you that FICO scores are not what Facebook is up to, though a person’s FICO score is likely part of his or her social credit score. Nonetheless I thought your litmus test sounded overly simplistic.

On point 2: I think EVERYONE agrees.

On point 3: That frequently tends to be the case for litmus tests. It is also why I hedge all of that with qualifiers. Because yes, it is overly simplified. But I don't know what you expect from me? Write the Principalía of social credit systems?

Re: Facebook taps lawyer who helped write Patriot Act as new general counsel

#124

Post by godelski »

mdorazio wrote: post #115
godelski wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fair argument. But there were other factors in my argument. That social credit scores are used to determine more than "can you pay back your credit?" It isn't hard to argue that FICO can be abused. But what's being argued here is that we don't need, nor want, a system that is more imposing than FICO. One that affects much more of your life, such as "can I use an airplane?"

FICO can be and is used to discriminate in job applications. You also seem to be missing the point that debt financing is a huge part of the ability to live a standard American life, much more so than in a country like China. For example, if you can't buy a car, there are many places in America where you simply won't be able to get around. This social-financial reliance system makes credit scores in America a lot clo…

You realize I'm trying to distinguish a "social credit system" from a "credit system", right?

I will agree that there's problems with a credit system. No argument there. But I'm (we're?) arguing that these problems are exacerbated when adding the social element.

Re: Facebook taps lawyer who helped write Patriot Act as new general counsel

#125

Post by cam_l »

sprayk wrote: post #113

Any time I see arguments to effect of "lawyer X lawyered for Y, and Y is bad, so lawyer X is bad," I remember an episode from Star Trek: TNG called "The Measure of a Man," in which Picard is chosen to defend Data's right to self-determination as a sentient being, and Riker is chosen to make the opposite case for the character that wants to treat Data as a machine, a weapon that can be reallocated freely like a Jeep o…

That is a beautiful argument, but Star Trek is wishful fantasy. The reality is probably, most of the time, Riker was the only guy left after all the others, who could afford to, declined the case.

But this is not even this kind of case, not in terms of need, nor in terms of service to a greater principle. And we do actually need to hold people to account for their actions. There can be mitigating factors, but just doing your job has not been a defense for quite some time.

Re: Facebook taps lawyer who helped write Patriot Act as new general counsel

#126

Post by heybrendan »

sprayk wrote: post #113

Any time I see arguments to effect of "lawyer X lawyered for Y, and Y is bad, so lawyer X is bad," I remember an episode from Star Trek: TNG called "The Measure of a Man," in which Picard is chosen to defend Data's right to self-determination as a sentient being, and Riker is chosen to make the opposite case for the character that wants to treat Data as a machine, a weapon that can be reallocated freely like a Jeep o…

Unrelated, "The Inner Light" episode still hits me in my soul, even after all this time. For those that have not seen it, you owe yourself to watch it.

Re: Facebook taps lawyer who helped write Patriot Act as new general counsel

#127

Post by m463 »

cam_l wrote: post #125
sprayk wrote: post #113

Any time I see arguments to effect of "lawyer X lawyered for Y, and Y is bad, so lawyer X is bad," I remember an episode from Star Trek: TNG called "The Measure of a Man," in which Picard is chosen to defend Data's right to self-determination as a sentient being, and Riker is chosen to make the opposite case for the character that wants to treat Data as a machine, a weapon that can be reallocated freely like a Jeep o…

That is a beautiful argument, but Star Trek is wishful fantasy. The reality is probably, most of the time, Riker was the only guy left after all the others, who could afford to, declined the case. But this is not even this kind of case, not in terms of need, nor in terms of service to a greater principle. And we do actually need to hold people to account for their actions. There can be mitigating factors, but just do…

I think there were a lot of interesting first ammendment cases fought to defend less high-minded situtions.

Re: Facebook taps lawyer who helped write Patriot Act as new general counsel

#128

Post by opportune »

sprayk wrote: post #113

Any time I see arguments to effect of "lawyer X lawyered for Y, and Y is bad, so lawyer X is bad," I remember an episode from Star Trek: TNG called "The Measure of a Man," in which Picard is chosen to defend Data's right to self-determination as a sentient being, and Riker is chosen to make the opposite case for the character that wants to treat Data as a machine, a weapon that can be reallocated freely like a Jeep o…

This doesn't convince me, because 1) in the real world there are often major monetary asymmetries in law, meaning one team has access to much more lawyers' time 2) your example is mostly irrelevant since it's not like the lawyer was a defense attorney, she voluntarily wrote an oppressive law and then spent much of her time afterwards defending/upholding it.

If you read the article you see that not only did she write the law, the Bush administration gave her major credit for leading the patriot act project. How is that at all similar to playing devil's advocate?

Re: Facebook taps lawyer who helped write Patriot Act as new general counsel

#129

Post by btown »

opportune wrote: post #128
sprayk wrote: post #113

Any time I see arguments to effect of "lawyer X lawyered for Y, and Y is bad, so lawyer X is bad," I remember an episode from Star Trek: TNG called "The Measure of a Man," in which Picard is chosen to defend Data's right to self-determination as a sentient being, and Riker is chosen to make the opposite case for the character that wants to treat Data as a machine, a weapon that can be reallocated freely like a Jeep o…

This doesn't convince me, because 1) in the real world there are often major monetary asymmetries in law, meaning one team has access to much more lawyers' time 2) your example is mostly irrelevant since it's not like the lawyer was a defense attorney, she voluntarily wrote an oppressive law and then spent much of her time afterwards defending/upholding it. If you read the article you see that not only did she write…

There is also the argument that the PATRIOT Act was flawed not for its stated intent, but for the nuance (or lack thereof) of its implementation. And the designer of the bill is the one responsible for said nuance, especially considering that she designed it at a time when it would have been political suicide for many lawmakers to oppose it for its nuance. She could have taken the opportunity to create something in keeping with civil liberties, and instead she did quite the opposite.

Absent additional context, it is very reasonable to expect her to disregard civil liberties in the remainder of her career.

Re: Facebook taps lawyer who helped write Patriot Act as new general counsel

#130

Post by Kiro »

malloreon wrote: post #7
iscrewyou wrote: post #2

Someone tell these yahoos that optics is a thing. I expect the next statement to be about transparency and connecting communities. Just like the last one. And the one before.

for facebook optics is not a thing. they know they have a stranglehold on people addicted to their products, and advertisers who pay through the nose to sell things to those addicts. Honestly, why bother with optics? No one's going to like the company ever again except their employees, but no business or politician or organization is going to not take facebook's call.

Normal people outside the tech bubble still like Facebook. Even inside it there are people who do (I like Facebook).
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