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Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

nytimes.com

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Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#121

Post by SllX »

candiodari wrote: post #18
Someone1234 wrote: post #3

This is a very interesting data driven article that will make you depressed. I recommend it. > Technological solutions, like electronic anklets that monitor an individual’s whereabouts, are another option. Even sending text-message reminders to show up in court makes it more likely that a defendant will do so. All these options are cheaper than incarceration. I hope this gains popularity. Cash bail discriminates agai…

The article also proves things that people were unwilling to accept in this article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19253333 There people always made the point that human judges making just decisions based on fairness. Well, clearly not. Algorithms would be another, better way to know exactly what makes the determination if a person should be released awaiting trial or not.

Those who will live by the algorithm will die by the algorithm.

People can be reasoned with, appealed to, threatened, or compelled in any number of circumstances, and that is human. Algorithms will simply be gamed and abused by those who control them.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#122

Post by erik_seaberg »

bigwheeler wrote: post #63
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it involves money changing hands, which gets certain people all up in a lather about abolishing it. If you're found innocent is the bail fee rescinded?

If by “bail fee” you mean the money that the bail bondsman charges you, then no, it is not. You can basically think of bail bondsmen like a bank. You are borrowing money from them to get out of jail. Their fee is like a high interest rate on the loan. They are a completely separate entity than the court that decides whether you are guilty or innocent. For instance- if you hired a lawyer and were found innocent, would…

> if you hired a lawyer and were found innocent, would you expect the lawyer to refund you your legal fees?

The state ought to compensate a defendant for reasonable costs after a false accusation, at least as long as public defenders are infamously understaffed.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#123

Post by pjc50 »

philwelch wrote: post #50
Someone1234 wrote: post #3

This is a very interesting data driven article that will make you depressed. I recommend it. > Technological solutions, like electronic anklets that monitor an individual’s whereabouts, are another option. Even sending text-message reminders to show up in court makes it more likely that a defendant will do so. All these options are cheaper than incarceration. I hope this gains popularity. Cash bail discriminates agai…

If I'm a bail bondsman, I'm probably already sending text messages to my clients to make sure they show up in court, because if they don't, I'm the one out the money unless I go pick them up and take them to the county jail myself. I'm not sure about ankle bracelets, but there's no reason they couldn't be part of the current bail system, either--if I'm a bail bondsman, I'd give a discount to any client that wears an…

This is the fully privatized "justice" system that Neal Stephenson parodied in Snow Crash.

Private bail bonds are an almost uniquely US phenomenon. Most other countries either go harsher and keep everyone awaiting trial in jail, or more humane and allow bail on conditions not money. Only America sees it as an opportunity for economic exploitation.

The best way to wither the system would be to speed up court proceedings.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#124

Post by taejo »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #110
perfmode wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you being descriptive or normative?

I'm afraid I don't understand.

Are you describing the world as you see it (that's descriptive; obviously you are, not sure why GP is asking) or as you think it should be (that's normative).

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#125

Post by imtringued »

maxxxxx wrote: post #71
DoreenMichele wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stayed home with my kids until they were in their teens. I did so in part because I was molested and raped after my sister left for college and my mom began working, leaving me unprotected from a predator. My kids were never molested. It was crystal clear in my mind that the single biggest thing I could do to protect them from predators was simply be present. They spent little time in daycare or home alone. I am of…

"So it's driven home to me daily that the world terribly undervalues quiet maintenance type work." I always think about how little the cleaners at a company are paid. In a sense they keep the whole thing running but they get sooo little respect.

It's simple market forces at work. There are a hundred million potential cleaners in the entire USA but less than a million potential developers. (made up statistics)

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#126

Post by simonh »

scottlocklin wrote: post #88
Hello71 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think private bondsmen in the US can legally contract to require people to wear ankle bracelets. More fundamentally though, these sorts of "free market" theories tend to assume an unreasonable amount of options and knowledge of potential clients. See: payday loans. Sure, in theory all the details of the loans are pre-agreed, and customers sure do have a lot of options. In practice, the most ethical providers…

I bet they have apps they could require people to stick in their phone which do the same thing. If not, and you feel like contributing to the dystopian hellscape we live in: business oppos!

Phone aren't always on, aren't always in coverage and the app would have to be actually active when the phone is switched on anyway. How do you think it would work?

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#127

Post by ataturk »

Someone1234 wrote: post #3

This is a very interesting data driven article that will make you depressed. I recommend it. > Technological solutions, like electronic anklets that monitor an individual’s whereabouts, are another option. Even sending text-message reminders to show up in court makes it more likely that a defendant will do so. All these options are cheaper than incarceration. I hope this gains popularity. Cash bail discriminates agai…

It's odd to me how "cash bail" was not such a big issue in the recent past. No, what has changed is that people have zero respect for the law and don't show up after posting bail and then have to have arrest warrants issued.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#128

Post by zeveb »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #79
zeveb wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a fee: you get it back just for showing up to court, whether you're guilty or innocent.

No, they charge you a fee in addition: "Bond agents generally charge a fee of ten percent for a state charge and fifteen percent for a federal bail bond, with a minimum of one hundred dollars in such states as Florida, required in order to post a bond for the full amount of the bond. This fee is not refundable and represents the bond agent's compensation for services rendered." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bail_bond…

The bondsman charges you a fee to lend you the money to pay the bail; if you pay the bail yourself you get it back regardless.

You're not forced to use a bondsman, only if you cannot put together bail yourself. There's a decent argument that bails which require a bondsman violate the constitutional prohibition on excessive bails, but I don't know if that's been adjudicated.

Regardless, the judicial system is not charging you a fee.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#129

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

zeveb wrote: post #128
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they charge you a fee in addition: "Bond agents generally charge a fee of ten percent for a state charge and fifteen percent for a federal bail bond, with a minimum of one hundred dollars in such states as Florida, required in order to post a bond for the full amount of the bond. This fee is not refundable and represents the bond agent's compensation for services rendered." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bail_bond…

The bondsman charges you a fee to lend you the money to pay the bail; if you pay the bail yourself you get it back regardless. You're not forced to use a bondsman, only if you cannot put together bail yourself. There's a decent argument that bails which require a bondsman violate the constitutional prohibition on excessive bails, but I don't know if that's been adjudicated. Regardless, the judicial system is not char…

The judicial system isn't charging you a fee, but it is setting a price where the only way for you to get out of jail is to be charged a fee. It's a fee for the poor, regardless if they are innocent of the crime or not. While it's not technically the judicial system, they are absolutely enabling it.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#130

Post by scottlocklin »

simonh wrote: post #126
scottlocklin wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet they have apps they could require people to stick in their phone which do the same thing. If not, and you feel like contributing to the dystopian hellscape we live in: business oppos!

Phone aren't always on, aren't always in coverage and the app would have to be actually active when the phone is switched on anyway. How do you think it would work?

It would be a reminder app, and otherwise work exactly the same way as those creepy "spouse tracking apps" people use to catch cheating housewives.
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